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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTN(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 19ú Aibreán, 1951.Thursday, 19th April, 1951.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. P. O’Kelly and Mr. M. Breathnach (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.VOTE 7—OLD AGE PENSIONS.Mr. W. Maguire called and examined.1040. Chairman.—Paragraph 9 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is of an informatory character and reads as follows:— “Subhead A.—Pensions and Supplements. Following on the enactment of the Social Welfare Act, 1948, the rates of Old Age Pensions and Pensions to Blind Persons were increased as from 7th January, 1949, whilst cash supplements under Article 4 of the Social Welfare (Cash Supplements) Order, 1947 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 76 of 1947) ceased to be payable. Certain modifications of the qualifying conditions were also incorporated in the Act. The necessary additional financial provision was made by way of supplementary estimate.” 1041. Chairman.—On subhead B— Allowances in Kind—is this subhead gone now?—I think it is gone altogether now. It was a carry over to enable claims in arrear to be settled. You may take it that it is gone. 1042. On subhead E.—Sums Irrecoverable—the amount seems rather small. Are we to understand that this is the total amount irrecoverable out of the Vote?— Yes, in respect of that year. 1043. What would the average be, taking one year with another?—The amounts vary. 1044. Deputy Sheldon.—You are never able to estimate?—No, not very closely. 1045. Chairman.—What exactly is the meaning of subhead F—Extra Statutory Grants?—These are payments which are delayed for one reason or another and are really out of time, but in equity it is considered fair that they should be paid. For instance, a claimant might hold a number of pension orders and only come in and claim a number of them together. Their period of validity is only three months, but if there were any reasonable excuse it seems unfair that, through ignorance, they should be losing some of their due entitlement just because they happen to be delayed. Then there may be delay on the part of officers or books may be lost in the post and the loss not come to notice in time to enable the amounts to be disposed of except under this extra-statutory payment. VOTE 27—WIDOWS’ AND ORPHANS’ PENSIONS.Mr. W. ’Maguire further examined.1046. Chairman.—Paragraph 17 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General indicates that there was a saving on subhead A—Payment to Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Fund—due to the cessation of the payment of cash supplements, and there is reference to the amending legislation. 1047. On subhead B—Allowances in Kind—there is no provision here for the recovery of payments which may not have been warranted. Everything seems to be for the best in this world of widows’ and orphans’ pensions, from the accounting point of view, Mr. Wann? Mr. Wann.—These are only payments to the fund 1048. Have we anything to do with the fund here? Mr. Wann.—No, it does not come before the Public Accounts Committee. 1049. Deputy Sheldon.—So recoveries are not a matter for this committee? Mr. Wann.—Not in relation to the Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Fund. 1050. Chairman.—When was the last report of that fund? Mr. Wann.—For the year 1948-9. The accounts are presented. VOTE 44—NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.Mr. W. Maguire further examined.1051. Chairman.—The first sub-paragraph of paragraph 39 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General refers to the cessation of the payment of cash supplements on the passing of the Social Welfare Act, 1948, and the consequent saving to the Exchequer. The second sub-paragraph deals with expenditure and administration and reads as follows:— “Section 17 (2) of the National Health Insurance Act, 1947, provides that the sum payable to the National Health Insurance Fund out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas in respect of expenditure on benefits and administration in any financial year shall be paid in such amounts and at such times ‘during that financial year’ as the Minister for Finance shall determine. A sum of £4,689, being the balance of the contribution from voted moneys in respect of the year ended 31st March, 1948, was paid into the National Health Insurance Fund and charged to the Vote in the year under review with the authority of the Department of Finance. I understand that steps are being taken to amend Section 17 (2) of the Act with retrospective effect so as to enable payments ascertained to be due to the Fund to be made without restriction as to the date of payment.” Mr. Wann.—The amendment was effected in the Social Welfare Act, 1950, which provided for the deletion of the words “during the financial year”. 1052. Chairman.—What is the effect of that? Mr. Maguire.—It enables the payment to be made outside the year. Under the original legislation it had to be made within the year and as it could not be ascertained until after the 31st March it was, strictly speaking, impossible. 1053. Chairman.—The concluding part of paragraph 40 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, which refers to subhead F—Substitutive Allowances—reads as follows:— “The sum of £4,573 3s. 0d. charged to this special subhead, which was opened with the authority of the Department of Finance, represents recoupment to public assistance authorities of balances of expenditure in connection with payments made under the Order, the total amount refunded to 31st March, 1949, including £53,415 0s. 3d. charged to the vote in 1947-48, being £57,988 3s. 3d. Under the terms of the Order each public assistance authority is entitled to recoupment of the amount which the Minister for Social Welfare certifies as having been expended by that authority, but I am informed that as certificates by Local Government Auditors in respect of the expenditure incurred by some public assistance authorities are still awaited the Minister has not yet given his certificate.” Mr. Wann.—I was informed in February last that the Minister had received certified accounts for 26 out of the 32 public assistance authorities. I do not know the present position. Mr. Maguire.—The position remains the same. Twenty-six have been certified and in respect of the remaining six the Local Government auditor’s certificate has not been received in regard to two and the remaining four are under examination in connection with minor discrepancies. 1054. Chairman.—On subhead A.— Medical Benefits (Grants-in-Aid)—to whom are the Grants-in-Aid made payable?—They are paid over to the fund. 1055. You have nothing to do with it after that?—Not for the present purpose. The fund is part of the assets from which we make the payments, benefits and other charges. This is a disappearing charge. It is an old arrangement inherited from earlier legislation and the expenditure for 1948-49 is a final figure. 1056. Subhead B—Benefits, Expenses of Administration and Supplements (Grants-in-Aid)—is also a Grant-in Aid in respect of which there has been a saving due to the cessation of cash supplements, offset to some extent by an increase in the Exchequer contribution. Will this Grant-in-Aid remain?—It will. I was in error in saying that subhead A will disappear, but it will be a fixed amount in the future, until the new scheme comes into operation. 1057. I want to get the principle of the Grant-in-Aid under subhead A. Why is it a Grant-in-Aid? Mr. Wann.—It is a lump sum payment to the fund. Mr. Maguire.—It is a proportion based on the contributions, two-ninths of twopence in respect of each weekly contribution, paid over to the funds to meet the expenses. 1058. Chairman.—You calculate the appropriate two-ninths and then that becomes a statutory Grant-in-Aid?—Yes, that is roughly the position. 1059. Chairman.—On subhead G.— Sums Irrecoverable—the amount is certainly very small?—Yes. I think that is a winding up of supplementary allowances that were overpaid. That would explain the smallness of the amount. 1060. Extra Receipts payable to Exchequer—what is the meaning of these payments made from the National Health Insurance Fund?—You mean the sum of £21,949 10s. 0d.? That is a payment which arises in connection with the strike of agents which resulted in the stoppage of the payment of benefits in the ordinary way and the substitutive allowances were paid by the local authorities through their assistance officers. This is an adjustment figure. 1061. You recoup the local authorities for the expenditure?—Yes, and the fund recoups the Exchequer. The payments were made by the Exchequer in the first instance instead of through the funds as they would have been, if they were ordinary benefit payments. The fund is now recouping the Exchequer. VOTE 57—CHILDREN’S ALLOWANCES.Mr. W. Maguire called.No question. VOTE 59—UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE AND UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE.Mr. W. Maguire further examined.1062. Chairman.—Paragraph 60 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads as follows:— “Subhead A.—Payments to the Unemployment Fund. The saving of £146,477 5s. 1d. on the amount provided under this subhead was due to the cessation of payment of cash supplements as from the 17th August, 1948, offset to some extent by an increase in the Exchequer contributions under the Unemployment Insurance Acts. I am informed that the saving attributable to the cessation of cash supplements amounted to approximately £184,000 and that the increase in Exchequer contributions was approximately £37,000.” 1063. Any question on that? Let us turn to the Vote proper on page 210. In connection with the note on subhead C— Advances to Workpeople for Fares—what assistance is given in this case?—We advance the travelling expenses in certain cases, where work is offered to a man at an employment exchange and where the work is at a distance. 1064. On subhead E—Allowances in Kind—that is a carry over?—Yes. 1065. In connection with subhead F— Transfer of Harvest Workers—the expenditure seems to have been very small here?—The expenditure stopped in the course of the year, Mr. Chairman, through the discontinuance of the harvest labour schemes from October, 1947. These are really hangover payments in arrear. We used to pay travelling expenses and a proportion of lodging allowances to the men who were sent to work under the scheme. There would be a certain delay with the claims and with the settlement of the claims. 1066. Deputy Sheldon.—I take it that your Estimate was already prepared before October, 1947?—Yes, before it was decided to discontinue the scheme. Chairman.—That means that the men who are entitled to grants in the harvest of 1947 might not have collected what was due to them until the following financial year or is there some other explanation? Deputy Sheldon’s point is that if the scheme were discontinued in October, 1947, why did it appear in the Estimate at all for the following year? Deputy Sheldon.—Surely the final consideration would be subsequent to October?—Yes. I should say the position was that it was not clear that the scheme would not be continued and provision had to be made for it. The decision to stop the scheme may not have been as early as the actual cessation because of this being a seasonal scheme by its nature. The scheme would have carried on during the harvest of 1947 but the decision finally to drop it would apply in respect of 1948. I believe the decision was made at such a stage in the early part of 1948 that the Estimate would have gone through by then. 1067. That means that the note is not correct?—I do not know that I quite accept that. The discontinuance would be from October, 1947, which would be the end of that season but the decision to discontinue might well have been taken in February, March or April of the following year. 1068. Chairman.—Should not the note then have taken the form that this was a seasonal scheme, that it was discontinued, as was normally the case, in October, 1947; and that the Department made arrangements for its continuance and put it in the Estimate but that subsequently, it was decided not to continue it? Deputy Sheldon.—You could not very well have decided in 1947 that you were to continue a scheme for 1948-49 which was being provided in the Estimate. There would be separate schemes for each year? —I am afraid I do not quite get your point. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—According to the note, it was discontinued in October, 1947. Why does it appear in the 1948 Estimate? —It was described as discontinued from October, 1947, because it did not operate after the harvest of 1947. That is the time it would normally cease to operate in respect of the year 1947-48 but the decision to stop the scheme may not have been taken until well into 1948 by which time the estimated provision would have been continued on the ordinary basis. This is obviously a seasonal scheme in every year. That would explain why it was not specially called a seasonal scheme in the note. 1069. Deputy Sheldon.—Would it not have been clearer to put in the note that it was decided not to run the harvest labour scheme in 1948?—I suppose it would be clearer, looking at it in retrospect. I agree that it would make it clearer. 1070. Chairman.—Has subhead H.— Special Register of Agricultural and Turf Workers—disappeared now?—Yes. 1071. With regard to subhead H.H. —Losses and Compensation—is this £57 14s. 10d. the complete picture of the entire losses and compensation for the year, or is there anything to be added to the notes at the bottom of the page which set out cash shortages at local offices not exceeding £2 in any one case and not involving suspicion of fraud or culpable negligence, unrecovered balances of irregular payments, and payments irregularly made. So far as you have been able to trace, that is the amount of the loss?—Other recoveries were made by deduction, but apart from that, the answer is yes; this is the final figure. 1072. In respect of Appropriations in Aid, you realised substantially more than was estimated. The note includes an item in connection with contributions from county boroughs and urban area councils for which the original amount was £234,000. Had the Supplementary Estimate of £9,000 anything to do with any amendment of the Act?—No. This contribution is made on the basis of the valuation of the contributing local authorities and the Supplementary Estimate does not affect the amount. The rateable valuation?—Yes. 1073. So that the higher the valuation goes, the more you get?—So long as the statute stays as it is, yes. VOTE 66—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL WELFARE.Mr. W. Maguire further examined.1074. Chairman.—In subhead D.— Telegrams, Telephones, Postage and Poundage—what does poundage refer to? —Poundage on postal orders. Certain of the unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance payments are by means of postal orders. 1075. There is an item in the Appropriations in Aid of £10,610 3s. 6d. as against an estimated figure of £5,000, representing payment to the Exchequer in pursuance of Section 7 (3) of the National Health Insurance Act, 1942. How did that come about?—That is the figure in respect of unclaimed stamps, stamps sold and not accounted for by being included in cards later submitted. The amount has to be estimated and can only be finally calculated at the end of the year when we get the realised figure. 1076. Is there any reason for it?—Any reason for the difference? Any reason why the unclaimed stamps amount should have risen so much above the estimate?—No, I do not think we have any valid explanation of it. It varies, and why there should be a large sum of unclaimed stamps in the first instance at all is never very clear. 1077. This is a loss to the contributors? —It is a loss to the people who buy the stamps, and how much of it is a loss to contributors and how much to employers, it would be difficult to say. Some may be lost to contributors because of stamped cards which have been lost and have not been returned to the proper quarter. VOTE 67—MISCELLANEOUS SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES.Mr. W. Maguire further examined.1078. Chairman.—The amount under subhead A—Grants under the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts, 1914 to 1930— is arranged annually with the Department of Finance?—The amount is based on estimates sent in by the local authorities and Finance sanction is obtained. We refund one-half of the expenditure. 1079. Some areas do not seem to take advantage of this scheme?—No. 1080. —Is there any reason for that?— The schools themselves in a great many cases are not keen on taking advantage of it. 1081. Your business is with the local authority in this case?—With the local authority, yes. 1082. They deal with the school manager?—Yes. 1083. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—On subhead B—Grants under the School Meals (Gaeltacht) Acts, 1930 and 1933—I should like to find out whether the saving of £540 is due to the fact that the majority of the schools do not avail of the scheme in full or whether the majority of the schools avail of the scheme only in part?—It would be very difficult to segregate the two. It is partly one and partly the other. Some schools definitely will not take advantage of this scheme at all. 1084. There is no way of compelling them?—No. 1085. Chairman.—Could we get a list of the schools which are entitled to it and have not taken advantage of it. Deputy Mrs. Crowley would like to have the information, and if there is no objection. perhaps you could send us a note, unless there is a very large number?— The operation of this Act under subhead B. is limited to certain specified Gaeltacht areas and I think we could get a statement of the number of schools. I cannot see what objection there would be to stating the number of schools in these areas which take advantage of it and the total number of schools in these areas. 1086. Would there be any objection to giving the names of the schools?—I should not like to answer that definitely. You could look into it, and if you feel that there is some good reason for not doing so, well and good?—I will get the information and give at least the numbers. If there is no objection, I can also give the names.* 1087. With regard to subhead C.—Welfare of the Blind—the capitation rate is the sole responsibility you have?—Yes. 1088. If there were any training, it would come under that subhead?—Yes. It does include, not necessarily for this year, some training as telephonists and typists. 1089. Subhead D. refers to grants towards the supply of fuel for necessitous families. Have you any figures as to the number of persons in the different areas who participated in this fuel scheme?— No. The schemes are administered by local authorities and they look after the numbers. We deal with the expenditure side. 1090. What is the principle of this grant? Is any contribution made by the persons who benefit or is the footwear supplied completely free of charge?— Some of the footwear is supplied free of charge. Persons not in receipt of home assistance are required to pay a contribution, which is determined by the public assistance authority. Persons in receipt of home assistance receive the official footwear without charge. 1091. What about those in receipt of unemployment assistance?—They make a contribution. 1092. I presume that anticipated savings are not often very large?—They are not very often substantial. The witness withdrew. VOTE 4—COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR-GENERAL.Mr. Wm. J. Kiely called and examined.1093. Chairman.—A note, in relation to subhead A.—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—reads:— “Saving due to changes in personnel and vacancies remaining unfulfilled, partly offset by increase due to revision of rates of remuneration.” How does the present staffing position stand?—It was more or less unsatisfactory, Sir, but the position has now improved. Vacancies continue to arise due to changes in the staff. 1094. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—Is there any explanation of that? Can you not get any suitable staff to replace them?— Yes, after some delay. Early in the year under review a senior officer retired before he had reached the maximum age. Three officers were transferred to other Departments and two junior officers resigned. 1095. Chairman.—What rank did the officers who were transferred to other Departments hold?—Two had passed the open competitive examination for executive officers. They had been clerical officers with us. 1096. What about the auditing branch proper? How do you stand with regard to your auditors?—Fairly satisfactorily at the moment. Deputy Fitzpatrick.—It seems extraordinary that this Department, which is one of the most important branches of the Government service, is under-staffed. 1097. Chairman.—The Accounting Officer has said that in the auditing branch proper, the position is fairly satisfactory. What is the position with regard to the other grades? Are you short of junior officers?—Vacancies arose early in the year under review, but later in the year we got nine clerical officers. 1098. Are you given choice in regard to getting people who have had accountancy experience?—We look for boys who do well in mathematics in the examinations. 1099. I suppose the revenue people would be looking for the best also. Mr. Wann.—All Departments look for the best, I think. 1100. Chairman.—Would you have promotions from the executive grade to the auditing grade? Mr. Kiely.—That is so. An Executive Officer, after the initial probationary period of two years is eligible for appointment to the grade of Assistant Auditor. 1101. Does that mean two years probationary service with you?—Yes. We recruit the Executive Officers from the open competitive examination list. They have to undergo two years probation before they are eligible for promotion to the Assistant Auditor grade. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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