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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTN(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 8ú Samhain, 1951.Thursday, 8th November, 1951.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. M. Breathnach, Mr. P. O’Kelly and Mr. J. E. Twamley (An Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.484. Clerk.—I have received a letter from our Chairman, Deputy Sheldon, stating that he is indisposed and is unable to attend to-day. It will be necessary, therefore, to appoint a Chairman for this meeting. Perhaps, we could have a nomination. Deputy Gilbride.—I propose that Deputy Dockrell take the Chair. Deputy McGrath.—I second that. Question put, and agreed to. DEPUTY DOCKRELL took the chair accordingly. VOTE 42—GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE.Mr. P. Kennedy called and examined.485. Chairman.—No comment, I take it, arises on the various subheads. Have you anything to say in regard to the Appropriations in Aid?—No, Sir, except that the original provision was £10,000. That was estimated on the receipts from searches and certificates of previous years. It was found, as the year went on, that the number of requests for searches and certificates was somewhat less than we had expected. The result was that we had to allow for a decrease of £1,700 in receipts under that particular subhead. This was taken into account in the Supplementary Estimate. 486. Deputy McGrath.—In regard to subhead C—Superintendent and District Registrars—is there any retiring age for district registrars and do these registrars retain the fees themselves?—There is no retiring age for district registrars. 487. Do they retain the fees?—They retain the fees. Their fees are paid by the local authorities. 488. I am talking about the people who register births and deaths. We have a case where a man is the retired secretary of a board?—That particular individual is the superintendent registrar. 489. Can he retain his own fees and can he remain on in the job until he dies?—There is no specific retiring age for superintendent registrars. This is a case of a man whose income is bigger now than when he was working for the board and doing the combined job. Chairman.—We cannot concern ourselves with that aspect. If there is no retiring age, I think the Dáil would be the proper place to raise this matter. 490. Deputy McGrath.—He is entitled to retain the fees and to draw a pension at the same time? Mr. Kennedy.—The case to which you are referring in Cork is an interim appointment pending the making of a permanent appointment. 491. This is a personal appointment, I understand, and he cannot be removed. That is why I am raising the question. It was raised in the Dáil four years ago? —The statutory position in regard to the appointment of superintendent registrars is not satisfactory at the moment and there is legislation being prepared to deal with it. VOTE 68—HEALTH.Mr. P. Kennedy further examined.492. Chairman.—Paragraph 78 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “Subhead H—Grants to Health Authorities. As indicated in a note to the Estimates, issues in respect of grants under Section 4 of the Health Services (Financial Provisions) Act, 1947, are made from time to time on the basis of a percentage of estimated expenditure in advance of the audit of accounts and the amounts so issued are not liable to surrender, any necessary adjustments being made on subsequent grants. Section 4 of the Act provides that there shall, in respect of the year 1948-49 and each subsequent year, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas to each health authority a grant equal to the amount by which the health expenditure exceeds the standard expenditure. If, however, in any year the health expenditure of a health authority exceeds twice the standard expenditure the grant otherwise payable in respect of that year shall be reduced by a sum equal to one-half of the excess. The manner in which the standard expenditure of a health authority is to be determined is prescribed by Section 3 of the Act. I recently inquired regarding the number of health authorities for which the standard expenditure had been determined and was informed that determination could not be made until the audited accounts of the authorities for the years 1947-48 and subsequent years had been received and examined, and that it is only in recent months that accounts became available for the first group of authorities. Until the standard expenditure for each of the years 1948-49 and 1949-50 has been determined final adjustment of the grants payable for these years cannot be effected.” Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Kennedy?—Yes. A certain amount of progress has been made since that paragraph was written. Part of the difficulty in fixing the standard expenditure for the year 1947-48 is due to the fact that we have to wait until all the audited accounts for the local authorities for that year have become available. These accounts include, not alone the accounts of the health authorities themselves, which are the county councils and the county borough councils, but also a number of bodies to whose expenses the health authorities contribute, such as urban sanitary authorities, boards of public assistance, joint mental hospital boards, and so on. All their accounts had to be cleared before the standard expenditure could be settled. There are altogether 111 of these bodies and the accounts have been cleared in regard to the bulk of them. In addition to that, also, we had to be satisfied that there was no expenditure in respect of health services for the year 1947-48 included in the accounts of subsequent years for these bodies. As a result, we had to wait until these later accounts had been cleared. There are altogether 31 health authorities. Of these 4 are ready now for determination in regard to standard expenditure and there are about six others in a position for final discussion with the health authorities concerned. We have to go into consultation with each health authority before we finally determine the standard expenditure. It is very important for the health authority that the standard expenditure should be satisfactory from their point of view. The contribution they get from the Exchequer depends on and is related to the standard expenditure. 493. It is satisfactory that the position has been cleared up. There was a question of staff. You were looking for more staff?—We were. 494. What is the position?—That has been satisfactorily met. 495. I notice that under subhead D— Telegrams and Telephones—there was a sum of £364 7s. 6d. more than granted. What was the cause?—The charges were increased during that year. 496. I see that under subhead F.2— Expenses in connection with Consultative Health Councils, etc.—the Consultative Councils met less frequently than anticipated. Why was that?—It is impossible to know in advance how often these various bodies are likely to meet. In fact, a number of them have practically completed their work. I may say that two of them have already furnished full reports to the Minister and to all intents and purposes they have finished their work. 497. Subhead F.3 concerns the dissemination of information and advice on health. Some thousands of pounds have been saved and the note says that the savings occurred mainly under the headings of newspaper and poster publicity. Can you add anything to that?—Of the total figure of £15,000 which was provided there was £7,800 for advertisements in newspapers. The actual expenditure was about £5,600. There was, therefore, a saving of about £2,200 there. We also had provision for £4,000 for poster publicity. We spent less than £2,000. Our publicity varies from year to year. It is not easy to determine in advance what we shall have to concentrate on or how much we shall have to spend on any particular aspect of advertising. This year, for example, we are spending a considerable amount of money on advertisements in connection with diphtheria immunisation. We did not know before the beginning of the year that we should have to embark on this publicity. It was not until we got the returns from the local authorities during the year, which showed that there was a falling off in immunisations that we decided to embark on this campaign. We cannot forecast things such as this. 498. Why was the actual newspaper publicity cut down?—We did not have to advertise as extensively as we thought we might have to. 499. Was that owing to the success of the advertisements you inserted?—Partly, and partly, also, because the number of matters presenting themselves during the year which called for widespread advertising campaigns was not as great as we had expected. 500. Are they very successful?—They are on the whole. Our greatest difficulty is to design attractive and striking advertisements. 501. I notice that, as a result of the diphtheria inoculations, the falling-off in the number of cases in Cork Street Fever Hospital is dramatic. Is that not so?— Yes. Diphtheria has practically disappeared as a health problem. However, the medical authorities maintain that immunisation must be continued as otherwise the disease is liable to recur. 502. I see with regard to subhead G.1 —Vaccine Lymph Supply—that there has been an increase of about £450. What was the cause of that?—During the course of the year we had to renew the contract with the firm which supplied this vaccine. The contract had not been renewed for a number of years. The firm asked for an increase. It was felt that they were entitled to the increase and they got it accordingly. They keep a large supply of this vaccine in case of an outbreak of smallpox. They have several thousand doses available at all times. 503. Have you any comment to make on subhead G.3—Expenses in connection with a Survey of Human Nutrition?— The nutrition survey has now finished. 504. Is this just a clearing up?—Yes. One of the staff was retained for a portion of the year. 505. Have you any comment to make on subhead H—Grants to Health Authorities—under Miscellaneous Grants?—That is the Consolidated Health Grant now. 506. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—With regard to subhead I—Grants to Voluntary Agencies for Child Welfare, Schools for Mothers, etc.—is the excess there because higher grants were given to the existing agencies or is it because there were more of them?—The expenses of the existing agencies increased and we had to recoup them accordingly. They are paid on a percentage basis of their expenditure. 507. Were there no additional ones?— There may have been one or two extra ones, but from year to year they remain much the same. 508. Chairman.—Have you any comment to make on the balance of grants under the subhead M group in respect of years previous to 1948-49?—These represent balances of various grants which used to be made prior to the coming into operation of the Consolidated Health Grant. They are a just clearing off of the old ones and are all gone now. 509. Deputy O’Sullivan.—With regard to subhead J—National Blood Transfusion Service (Grant-in-Aid)—is this grant payable to any service outside Dublin?—The headquarters are in Dublin but the service is operated all over the country. 510. Chairman.—And do they themselves make payment?—They do not pay donors for the blood at all. There is a good deal of organisation expense involved such as advertising, staff and transport. They have at least one van and their equipment at headquarters is very elaborate. 511. Deputy McGrath.—With regard to subhead M.3—Medical Treatment, etc., of School Children—can you tell us what schools are defined as suitable schools in connection with the school medical scheme? I know of a girl who is attending a school in Cork and although she was in a primary class she had to pay for her spectacles and had to be sent to the Corporation clinic. What is the position?— At present, national schools are the only schools which qualify. Can you say if this child was attending a secondary school or a national school? 512. The child was in a primary class. Should she not, therefore, qualify?— Only national schools have this service at present. 513. I think that schools classed as primary schools are included. I do not think that national schools are specifically mentioned. Are they?—I believe there are circumstances in which it would be possible for a child not attending a national school to qualify, but I would not like to give an opinion on a particular case without having all the facts. 514. Chairman.—The details of the Appropriations in Aid are on pages 256-7. I notice that the estimate of receipts from the local taxation account is very close. Is it in respect of the same year?—The biggest item is that of £321,000 from the local taxation account which does not vary very much from year to year. It varies only by about a few hundred pounds. 515. The other estimates are very close also. Of course, the Supplementary made it up. Is that not so?—We got an opportunity of revising them during the year when the Supplementary Estimate was taken. The witness withdrew. VOTE 61—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.Leon Ó Broin called and examined.516. Chairman.—Paragraph 66 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General which relates to subhead H.2— Losses by Default, Accident. etc.—reads as follows:— “The losses borne on the Vote for the year ended 31st March, 1950, amounted to £8,751 10s. 7d. A classified schedule of these losses is set out at page 218. At page 221 particulars are given of 43 cases in which cash shortages or misappropriations of sums amounting to £5,693 16s. 0½d. and $300 were discovered; the amounts in question were made good and no charge to public funds was necessary.” Mr. Wann.—This is the usual formal paragraph. The amount charged to the Vote, £8,751 10s. 7d., exceeds the amount estimated by £4,951 10s. 7d. and shows an increase of £5,147 2s 1d. over the amount charged in 1948-9. One item of £3,012 1s. 2d., arising out of misappropriations of deposits in various savings bank accounts at Áchill Sound Post Office, accounts for a high proportion of the losses. 517. Chairman.—Paragraphs 67 and 68 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General which relate to Stores and Revenue, respectively, are as follows:— “A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with satisfactory results. In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at £1,025,693 on the 31st March, 1950, engineering stores to the value of £2,274 were held on behalf of other Government Departments. Stores other than engineering stores were valued at £304,762, including £53,818 in respect of stores held for other Government Departments.” “A test examination of the accounts of the Postal, Telegraph and Telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results. Sums due for telephone services amounting in all to £273 1s. 10d. were written off during the year as irrecoverable.” The amount written off as indicated in paragraph 68 during the year as irrecoverable was very small, was it not?— Yes, extremely small, having regard to the amount of the revenue involved. 518. Chairman.—Paragraph 69 of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads as follows:— “Post Office Savings Bank Accounts. The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31st December, 1949, were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results. In the reports on the accounts for the year 1945-46 and subsequent years it was stated that the total interest credited to depositors had, for various reasons, been estimated, subject to any necessary adjustment in subsequent years. For the year ended 31st December, 1949, however, the exact amount of the interest to be credited has been computed. The interest accrued during the year on securities standing to the credit of the Post Office Savings Bank Fund amounted to £1,583,359 12s. 10d. Of this sum, £1,175,195 18s. 8d. was paid and credited to depositors in respect of interest, management expenses amounted to £126,966 7s. 4d. and £281,197 6s. 10d. was set aside towards provision against depreciation in the value of securities.” Would you like to mention anything in connection with that, Mr. Wann?. Mr. Wann.—The position is as stated in the paragraph. A firm figure representing total interest credited to depositors was available in time for inclusion in the Accounts for the year ended 31st December, 1949, and no further adjustment will be necessary. 5l9. Chairman.—Perhaps, Mr. Ó Broin might be able to tell us what sum will be set out for depreciation? Mr. Ó Broin.—Provision for depreciation up to the 31st December, 1948, was £2,516,868 8s. 7d. and in 1949, £281,197 6s. 10d., the figure shown in the paragraph. The total figure against depreciation was, therefore, £2,798,065 15s. 5d. 520. Chairman.—Paragraph 70 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Report reads as follows:— “Post Office Factory. A test examination was applied to the accounts of the Post Office Factory with satisfactory results. Including works in progress on 31st March, 1950, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs during the year amounted to £53,795, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) amounted to £25,690, and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £5,040.” 521. Deputy Hickey.—What is actually being manufactured in the Post Office factory?—We do a wide variety of jobs and it would take a long time to enumerate them all. The main jobs we do for ourselves are the repair and manufacture of switchboards, the repair of telephones, the manufacture of wooden arms, and the repair and overhaul of mechanical transport. For other Departments we manufacture things like brass buttons and flags, while we maintain the Revenue Commissioners’ motor fleet and the motor fleet of the Department of Agriculture in Dublin. 522. Does that mean you could do many other things?—We already manufacture, assemble or repair a very long list of items. If the Deputy were interested I could send him a copy of the list. 523. What if the machinery in the factory is idle for a certain number of weeks or months in the year?—We try to keep such plant as we have fully occupied. Whether we succeed in achieving that I could not tell you off-hand. 524. Is the factory capable of development?—There is an obvious limit to the amount of expansion we can do. We have to have regard to the opposition of industry generally and so on. 525. Should the fact that the community’s interests might be involved be a guiding factor in your development?— If there was anything the community could not produce itself and which we could do economically, I am sure we would be glad to do it. Chairman.—That is very largely a question of Government policy. 526. Deputy Hickey.—Where is the factory?—Up at the Kingsbridge, on St. John’s Road. Chairman.—Now let us turn to the Vote proper on page 211. 527. Deputy D. O’Sullivan.—On subhead A.2—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—Metropolitan Offices—there has been a big saving. Chairman.—The saving there was partly due to economies effected in certain duties. 528. Chairman.—On the note to subhead A.3 regarding salaries, etc., in provincial offices—“Excess due to final adjustment of consolidated scales (£2,000) and to employment of additional staff due to growth of business (£32,000)”— have you anything to say? Mr. Ó Broin.—Our business is expanding all the time with the exception of the telegraph service. There is permanent expansion of both postal and telephone services. That involves a corresponding expansion of staff. 529. With regard to the telegraph is it that people are making more use of the long-distance telephones?—The telegraph service here, as in other countries, has been losing money for many years. 530. The turn-over is decreasing?—Yes. The cost is going up and telephones are there all the time in competition. 531. Deputy Hickey.—On subhead B— Travelling Expenses—what travelling expenses are covered by the sum of £22,000 odd?—The travelling expenses of all the staff set out under subhead A.1, Headquarters Staff; subhead A.2, Metropolitan Offices; subhead A.3, Provincial Offices, and subhead A.4, Stores Branch. 532. Chairman.—Would it cover repair to telephones?—No. We will be dealing later on with the travelling expenses of the engineering staffs. Apart from them, we have a very substantial staff travelling by cars, trains and buses. We have an inspectorate. Postmasters themselves travel to the various offices in their districts. All of them are obliged to travel to keep the services under regular personal supervision. 533. On subhead BB—International and other Conferences and Conventions— there is a saving of £1,776 3s. 4d. which is really illusory?—The saving is due to certain claims not coming in course of payment in the financial year. In the following year we will have to meet an increased demand. 534. Deputy Hickey.—When you talk about rent, etc., in subhead C, how is it that there is such a big item of £42,944 1s. 6d.? To whom are we paying the rent of our post offices?—We do not always own the properties we occupy. 535. Is there any difficulty in that? Is there any difficulty in connection with the post offices we operate throughout the country?—Yes. 536. Are the post offices in the cities and bigger towns the property of the State?—For the most part they are. 537. Take the case of post office premises in such towns as Fermoy, Thurles and Cork City?—The post offices you mention are probably our own property. There may be a head rent to be paid. 538. Chairman.—I think College Street Post Office is rented. I notice that in the Estimates for 1949-50 £10,950 is paid in rents and that light, water, heat, etc., amount to over £29,000. This would seem to indicate that the heaviest expense is very largely the cost of upkeep of premises?—Yes. 539. Deputy Hickey.—I can quite understand that. Is there any charge whatever on the Cork City Post Office to anybody?—I could not tell you what the position is in regard to any particular office without notice. I imagine that the position in Cork is that we own the property substantially, but there may be certain payments to ground landlords. 540. Would you not think that we should have complete ownership and control over all these places?—It would probably cost a lot of money to buy them all out. Chairman.—I think this is a matter where in individual cases, the Department, in their wisdom, sometimes might buy out certain interests, whereas in other cases it would not pay them to do so. Deputy Hickey.—If we are paying anything in the way of a head rent for those post offices the State should completely buy them out. The State should have complete control. Why should we pay ground rent? 541. Chairman.—On subhead E.2—Conveyance of Mails by Road—have you anything to add to the note. It is not entirely clear?—In that particular year the meat and fruit parcel post to Britain was still expanding. That is an explanation of the £8,100 excess due to increased parcel-post traffic. We had also envisaged a certain contraction in expenditure on these road services which did not materialise. There was a delay in the replacement of certain services by our own departmental motor vans. 542. From the portion of the note regarding “unanticipated delay in the introduction of certain road services (£6,500)” one would think that that should lead to a saving rather than an increase. The note is not very clear on that?—These are payments to the railway companies in respect of certain road services. The actual cost of the introduction of the new services would be distributed over various subheads in the Vote. 543. Deputy J. J. Collins.—As regards the question of mail deliveries, how does the cost of Post Office and railway transport compare with that in respect of private mail road contract?—In very many cases we find that, following a reorganisation on the basis of certain postal districts, we ourselves are able to do the job more cheaply than it can be done by contract. 544. Chairman.—What exactly does subhead E.4—Packet Services—British and Foreign—mean?—British and foreign accounts totalling approximately £3,000 in respect of arrears for the years 1946 to 1948 due to United States lines were expected to be received in the year 1949-50. Accounts for only £450 were, in fact, received and the balance of the claims is only now coming to hand. 545. Does subhead E.4 include the cross-channel?—It does. We have a joint contract with the British Post Office and we are retaining it, notwithstanding the development in the air services. 546. Deputy McGrath.—Is the saving due to the delay in receiving the account?—Yes. 547. Chairman.—With regard to subhead E.5—Conveyance of Mails by Air— there was a big Supplementary Estimate for this subhead?—I understand that it was an accumulation of old accounts from the U.S.A. which was responsible for that Supplementary Estimate. 548. Deputy Hickey.—On subhead G.2 —Uniform Clothing—are all these let out to contract?—Yes. 549. Could you not do something of that work in your own factory?—I do not think we touch clothing at all. The tailoring would be too big a job for us. We buy material for ourselves and other Government Departments and store it until such time as it is required, but we do not engage in manufacture from the cloth. 550. There was an expenditure of £19,000 on the manufacture of stamps. Who manufactures the stamps?—Most of our stamps are made for us by the Revenue Commissioners in the Stamping Department but there have been occasions when we have gone abroad in connection with special issues when we were not satisfied that the machinery in this country could produce the sort of job we wanted. 551. Chairman.—It is highly specialised work?—It involves highly specialised machinery known as the Recess plant which is not available in this country. 552. Deputy Hickey.—Could you not do a good deal of the work for £17,000, which is the amount of the grant? Is it a yearly occurrence?—That covers the manufacture of stamps and other things, but mainly stamps. 553. Chairman—The schedule of losses under subhead H.2—Losses by Default, Accident, etc.—is set out on page 218. The first is very big—Misappropriation by the Sub-Postmaster at Achill Sound Sub-Office, Westport?—That was a case of unusual magnitude. 554. The biggest we have ever had?—I am not sure about that but it is certainly the biggest in the past ten years. My predecessors have given the reason for it in connection with previous defalcations. In brief, the sub-postmistress in Achill Sound and her family had been associated with the office for 50 years. As a result she had an extensive knowledge of the local people and they in turn had absolute trust in her integrity. This enabled her to suppress and devote to her own use the money of selected depositors who left their deposit books in her custody and were likely to leave the conduct of their affairs entirely in her hands. When withdrawal was required it was paid out of embezzled moneys, thus preventing any inquiry or application to headquarters which would have led to the earlier detection of the frauds. As a precaution against the exploitation of too trusting depositors, depositors are asked to send in their books for examination once a year, to insist on an acknowledgement of any deposit of £20 and over and to retain possession of their deposit books. Every opportunity is taken of impressing on depositors the need for these things but the fact is that many depositors fail to co-operate and there is a limit, as the Committee will understand, to the length to which the Department can go without shaking public confidence in the savings bank and in the personnel of the 1,200 offices throughout the country transacting savings business. The losses in the five previous years average £921 a year and while the losses in this particular year of account are abnormally high they are still comparatively insignificant in relation to the volume of business transacted in that year—1,557,353 transactions valued for nearly £19,000,000. The other two cases in that year of some magnitude had the same features generally—these recurring features of the trusting public, an unscruplous postmaster or postmistress and the retention locally of bank books. 555. Was that in Castletownbere?— Yes, and in Washington Street, Cork. In the Washington Street, Cork, case, the person mainly responsible was an assistant and not the sub-postmistress, but we had to hold the sub-postmistress liable for what took place under her charge. She also was taken in by the assistant who had been in her employment for a long time and whom the postmistress completely trusted. 556. You are satisfied that all steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of these activities?—Every reasonable step we can take is taken. We have a highly competent staff watching these matters, but, as you will understand, it is exceedingly difficult to deal with a case of that sort. 557. Deputy Finan.—In the case of the Achill Sound Office, would this fraud have been going on for a long period?—For very many years. We are dealing in some cases with old people who come into money late in life and who never saw a bank book. 558. Do they suffer any loss?—No; we refund the money. 559. Chairman.—The length of time is the really disquieting factor?—It was by a clever piece of detective work that the existence of a big fraud was discovered. The bank books were hidden away and it was only by close investigation that the fraud was unearthed. 560. Deputy Finan.—At that time they were not subject to a yearly check?— Such deposit books as we can get hold of are regularly checked. 561. Chairman.—And that rule has been in operation for many years?—For many years—from the inception of the bank. 562. Deputy Finan.—It is complied with then?—In some cases, it is not. We emphasise the need for people keeping their books, returning them regularly and insisting on an acknowledgement in respect of sums of £20 and over. Chairman.—The way in which to view it is on the basis of the amount deposited and the numbers of transactions and from that point of view it is a very small thing. 563. Deputy McGrath.—Would there be any way of notifying people that the state of their account was so and so and asking them to check with their books?— In some of these cases, the people themselves had never seen a bank book and there was thus no real contact between them and our headquarters. 564. Such a procedure would act as a deterrent, would it not?—We do put up notices from time to time in post offices drawing attention to these rules and that is the best we can do. 565. I think that people who were not returning their books might be notified annually: “Your account stands at so much at present and will you please check it with your book. Otherwise, the Post Office will not be responsible”?—There is some doubt in the Department whether people would do that for you or whether you would gain very much by it. The amount of loss in any event is negligible. Deputy J. J. Collins.—I am inclined to support Deputy McGrath’s suggestion because in rural areas there are elderly people who might never see a notice in a post office and might not understand the necessity for forwarding books for check, but if the number of people who do not return their books annually is small it would not be impossible for the expert staff in the post office to send out a notice, as Deputy McGrath has suggested, telling Mrs. So and So: “Your account stands at such and such a figure,” and even though they might be negligent they would have that figure in their heads. 566. Chairman.—A personal letter sent to depositors whose books have not been sent in for a long period?—It is quite possible that in cases of that sort the sub-postmistress would be in a position to suppress the letter on its way to the depositor. It would be exceedingly difficult to provide for such notifications. 567. Deputy J. J. Collins.—There would be a way out of that too?—To ensure notification in every case all sorts of strategies and manœuvres would be necessary and would add enormously to our expense and trouble. Deputy McGrath—When people are engaged in checking the accounts it would not be a terrible expense. 568. Chairman.—Perhaps Mr. Ó Broin would look into the matter?—I shall be very glad to do so. 569. Does subhead I.2—Travelling Expenses—include travelling expenses of linesmen?—Yes, all the engineering staff. 570. Deputy McGrath.—I see that there is a saving on Subhead K—Engineering Materials. Did that arise from your inability to secure the materials? —We have been buying a great deal of material and doing a certain amount of stockpiling, but the material has not been coming in as rapidly as we would like. We have, however, secured a good deal of material. 571. On subhead I.1—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—the note says that the saving was due partly to labour not having been recruited? Were you not able to get the full labour force?—Difficulties arise from time to time in getting labour just where it is wanted and when it is wanted. 572. The note says also “to anticipated increases in wage rates not having fully materialised”. It looks as if they did not get the increase?—We frame our Estimate considerably in advance of the financial year and we have to make provision for increases which sometimes do not materialise. 573. Anyway, you did not pay more? —The subhead is a very big one, £369,000, and it did contain a measure against a possible situation. Every provident person has to keep in mind these days that wages are increasing. 574. Deputy Hickey.—On subhead L.4 —Rent, Rates on Wires, Water, Light, etc.—have you any idea of the amount of rent we are paying there for establishments? Out of the £23,000, how much would go in rent?—I have not got the break-down before me of the amount actually paid in respect of rent. The subhead provides for rent, water, light, etc. 575. I am anxious to find out the actual amount paid in rent?—I could get it, if the Deputy wishes. It would be nice to know it. Chairman.—There is a figure of £8,500 in the Estimates for rent under subhead L.4. 576. Deputy Hickey.—Surely you would not be continually paying that rent year after year?—Circumstances alter cases. In many cases in the country we could not buy a place outright, even if we wished to do so, as the people would not sell but would only rent for a period of years. In other cases, perhaps it may not suit our book to buy. 577. That may be so in some cases, but take the big engineering stores. Surely they are permanent?—In most of the cases where the houses are permanent, we own the property ourselves. There may be small outgoings. Chairman.—I think rent is a very small item, only a nominal amount, but if there were thousands of these items they would mount up. 578. Deputy Hickey.—If it is practicable at all, we should have complete ownership of the places where our establishments are?—That is largely a matter of policy that perhaps the Deputy may find an opportunity of discussing in another place. 579. Chairman.—On subhead M—Telephone Capital Repayments—that was very close estimating, only 2/- out. 580. Deputy Hickey.—On subhead N.2 —Compensation Allowances under Article 10 of the Treaty of 6th December, 1921—is that figure of £47,500 similar all down the years since 1922-23?—It is a falling figure. It falls with the disappearance of the compensated people. 581. It is payable for pensions only?— Yes, and they are declining. 582. It is not capitalised to buy them out altogether?—No. 583. Chairman.—A lot of N.2 comes back from the British Government?—N.3 comes back, what is known as the Wigg and Cochrane money. The British Government assume liability for the amount involved and repay it to us. It is shown in the Appropriations in Aid. 584. On subhead N.4—Increase in certain Pensions and Allowances—what exactly was the token provisions?—I understand the pensions were increased and the Department of Finance required us to provide a token sum for the actual amount. 585. Deputy Hickey.—On subhead Q.2, we have again an item of rent. We seem to be doing someone favours by paying rent as a State organisation. Would it be possible to find out the total amount of rent we paid on all our establishments right through the country? I do not mean sub-post offices but, where we are operating as an independent unit of the State?—That would be a query for the Department of Finance, covering the whole of the public service. Chairman.—I am afraid there are various items in all the accounts covering rent and we cannot really concern ourselves with the policy of paying rent or not. We are interested merely in the fact that the due rent is paid and not overpaid. Deputy Hickey.—I am mentioning it since the principal men at times in the executive offices could draw the Minister’s attention to the big sum paid in rent in a certain establishment in which we should have ownership ourselves as a Department of State. Chairman.—There are details that would govern various cases and we cannot really go closely into it. Deputy Hickey.—I am not going closely into it, but where we are paying such a large amount of rent in all our State Departments it appals me and makes me point out that we have no ownership of these ourselves. As executive officers the principal officials could draw the attention of the Minister to that point and have it rectified. I have in mind other Departments where we are paying huge sums of money in rent and as it is 30 years since we obtained our freedom here we should have some reality about this matter. Chairman.—I think we can all realise you are not in favour of rents. Deputy Hickey.—You need not interpret it in that manner. Where a State organisation has establishments, we should be in complete ownership of them. Deputy J. J. Collins.—If we run up against a problem where the establishments are rented to this Department, we may find they are not for sale. Deputy Hickey.—It means then that the State is not supreme. We have to draw some little line between the Government Departments and other institutions in the country. Deputy Finan.—We have to draw a line also with regard to the power of the State. Deputy Hickey.—The State seems to be paying a lot in rents to certain people in the country and outside the country. Chairman.—We must leave that question now. VOTE 62—WIRELESS BROADCASTING.Leon Ó Broin further examined.586. Chairman.—On subhead I—Radio Journal—I see the note says that “an official journal was not in operation during the year”. Has there ever been one? —No. There has never been one, but the Department of Posts and Telegraphs would like to have one. Over the years we have been considering what form that journal should take. 587. On page 232 there are Extra Receipts given. What are the license fees?—That is the payment of 12/6 a year for the possession of a wireless set. 588. So there is actually a profit on the running of the Department?—That is a moot point, Sir. Well, on paper, anyhow. We thank you very much, Mr. Ó Broin. The witness withdrew. VOTE 7—OLD AGE PENSIONS.Mr. W. Maguire called.No question. VOTE 27—WIDOWS’ AND ORPHANS’ PENSIONS.Mr. W. Maguire called and examined.589. Chairman.—Subhead B—Payment to Widows’ and Orphans’ Pensions Fund —is less than was anticipated. How did that come about?—It follows the withdrawal of cash supplements—the dates of withdrawal vary—and provision was made for any payments that might fall in later on. These payments did not develop to the extent anticipated at the time when the Estimate was drawn up. VOTE 44—NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.Mr. W. Maguire further examined.590. Chairman.—Paragraph 46 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General refers to substitutive allowances and states:— “In previous reports reference was made to provisional payments to public assistance authorities in respect of their disbursements under the Social Welfare (Substitutive Allowances) Order, 1948 (Statutory Instrument No. 8 of 1948) during the period of suspension by Cumann an Árachais Náisiúnta ar Shláinte of payment of benefits under the National Health Insurance Acts. A sum of £3 4s. 6d. charged to this subhead in the year under review brings the total amount recouped to the public assistance authorities to £57,991 7s. 9d. The Minister for Social Welfare has certified, in accordance with Article 3 (5) of the Order, the expenditure incurred by twenty-six public assistance authorities, and I am informed that the examination of the expenditure of the remaining six authorities has not yet been completed.” Mr. Wann.—I have recently been informed that the Minister has now given a certificate in connection with the six outstanding counties. 591. Chairman.—What is the total figure still to be paid? Mr. Maguire.—I am afraid that I cannot answer that offhand. Mr. Wann.—It is very little I think. Mr. Maguire.—These final payments are only very small amounts by way of adjustment in the final accounts. Advances are made in respect of these payments and the final adjustments are made on receipt of the audited account audited by the Local Government auditor. VOTE 57—CHILDREN’S ALLOWANCES.Mr. W. Maguire called.No question. VOTE 59—UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE AND UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE.Mr. W. Maguire further examined.592. Chairman.—Subhead E—Transfer of Harvest Workers—was just a token amount. No payment in connection with the harvest scheme fell to be paid in the year?—No. That was brought to an end in May, 1948, I think, and merely a token amount was put in the Estimate in case any item should come for payment in 1949-50. 593. Deputy Hickey.—What is the sum paid on unemployment benefit, or is that mentioned?—That is not mentioned in these accounts but appears in the account of the Unemployment Fund which is laid before the Oireachtas each year. 594. In other words, it is apart from this record altogether?—Yes. 595. Deputy McGrath.—What was subhead C—Advances to Workpeople for Fares?—In cases where workpeople are offered jobs at a distance from their home they may be advanced fares to get to their employment and the amount is refunded later. 596. Deputy Hickey.—There are also advances for people to come before the court of referees?—They may get advances also. VOTE 66—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR SOCIAL WELFARE.Mr. W. Maguire called.No question. VOTE 67—MISCELLANEOUS SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES.Mr. W. Maguire further examined.597. Chairman.—Subhead C—Welfare of the Blind—refers to payments made to various associations?—Institutions. 598. Not to individuals?—No. 599. Deputy Hickey.—That does not include public bodies, corporations or county councils?—Local assistance authorities make grants as well. 600. Does the State give anything to corporations or county councils to do that?—No. 601. Chairman.—That is in respect of workshops, residences and school residences. What about subhead D—Grants towards the Supply of Fuel for Necessitous Families?—These are grants to local Authorities. 602. There was quite a considerable saving on that?—The saving was due in part to a reduction in the price of handwon turf and also in part to a falling off in the number of people who made use of the scheme. Deputy McGrath.—And probably due also to the fact that they could not burn the turf that was handed out. 603. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—With regard to subhead E—Grants towards the Supply of Footwear for Necessitous Children—was the sum less than the Estimate by £647 because some county council did not avail of the scheme in full?—It is very difficult to say precisely. You might describe it in that way. We get an estimate from the county councils and the contribution to them is based on that. The actual expenditure may be a little less on the part of a particular county council or, possibly, the accounts do not come in on time. There is a time lag in this case, too, and if the Estimate goes as close as £647 in £29,000 it is quite good. It is almost inevitable that there would be some difference and it might just as well be the other way. 604. Deputy McGrath.—Is there not difficulty in procuring special footwear by the boards throughout the country?—I do not think so. 605. I am certain of it. There is a dispute between the Department and the South Cork Board of Assistance about the account for last year. Traders were not able to procure the special footwear. The payment will not be sanctioned by the Department at the moment and the traders have not been paid although they supplied substitute footwear of a superior quality?—The Deputy is speaking of something which does not refer perhaps to this particular year and I am not informed on it at the moment. 606. I know, but I am just pointing out that every year there is a difficulty in getting the special footwear?—There are undoubtedly cases where difficulties arise in distribution. In a particular area people may not be able to get the special footwear at times, while in another area there may be a surplus. These things are not very big and they are ironed out ultimately. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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