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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Díardaoin, 23rd Samhain, 1950.Thursday, 23rd November, 1950.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Mr. W. E. Wann (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. M Breathnach and Mr. P. M. Clarke (An Roinn Airgeadais ) called and examined.VOTE 40—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.Mr. J. S. Martin called and examined.215. Deputy Sheldon.—For record purposes, perhaps Mr. Martin will tell us the amount of capital which is now under his control?—Yes, I can give you that. On the 31st December last the actual sum was £1,541,603 15s. 11d. In addition, we have 2,500 dollars, of which I could not give you the approximate sterling equivalent; but the Trust Funds are what I said —£1,500,000. 216. Is the rate of increase still being maintained?—It is, approximately between £30,000 and £50,000. Perhaps I should say £30,000 to £40,000 a year. 217. Chairman.—Do you deal solely with the accounting side, or have you responsibilities on the investment side also?—In practice, the Commissioners decide the investments for the Trust Funds, but, of course, they ask for advice and suggestions. 218. Deputy S. Collins.—What vacancy arose that remained unfilled?—The post of legal assistant. Have you since had it filled?—It is not filled at the moment; it is under consideration in the Department of Finance. 219. Do you feel it is necessary?—I feel it is absolutely necessary. The witness withdrew. VOTE 65—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.Mr. S. Nunan called and examined.220. Chairman.—Subhead A.1 covers Salaries, Wages and Allowances. Does that cover the salaries of all the consuls? —This subhead deals with headquarters. The consuls would come under subhead B.1—Representatives Abroad?—Yes. 221. The first point that seems to arise is the excess expenditure, £3,270 16s. 9d. We have a note on that which says: “Excess due to increases in Civil Service remuneration and the employment of extra staff.” As Chairman, I am in the habit of asking the Accounting Officer if he could give some specific explanation as to what portion of the expenditure might be attributed to the increases in Civil Service remuneration and if that forms practically the whole of the increase?—The increases in the remuneration amounted, roughly, to £1,600. 222. Deputy S. Collins.—What was the additional type of staff that eat up the balance?—The additional staffs in connection with the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation. How much of the surplus did that account for—did it account for the balance as between £1,600 and the £3,000 odd?—Yes. 223. On subhead A.2, there seems to be a very substantial excess in travelling expenses. Is there any particular reason for that?—In the main, that would be accounted for by the very numerous meetings in connection with O.E.E.C. deputations going to London, Washington and Paris. 224. Chairman.—As regards subhead A.3—Incidental Expenses—is that a symbol of expectation? What was paid for the silver bacon dish? It states here in a note that a sum of £93 was paid for a silver bacon dish and four antique silver salt-cellars. 225. Deputy S. Collins.—They would not be quite compatible with a bacon dish. As regards subhead A.4—Telegrams and Telephones—there must be somebody living on the telephone to make up for this excess?—Telephones and telegrams in that connection were tremendously increased by reason of our association with O.E.E.C. That expenditure was very necessary. There were long cablegrams and telegrams sent in connection with the work of the O.E.E.C. Chairman.—So we can attribute the increase mainly to the work of O.E.E.C.? —I think that would be right. 226. Deputy S. Collins.—Subhead A.5 covers Official Entertainment. I was wondering if it would be convenient to give us a list of the people entertained and the cost of each entertainment?—Per haps that could be done. 227. Deputy Briscoe.—I do not think that would be possible. I have a recollection of one particular entertainment, the welcome to the pilgrims from Boston, and there must have been some hundreds?—I do not think that was in the year under review. 228. Deputy S. Collins.—What I am anxious to know is if it would be possible to get a list of the persons entertained and the cost of each entertainment?—We can do that. It may not be possible to give every individual who was entertained, but we can give such and such a group. I am interested in the number of entertainments that we get out of it. I want to see what entertainments I missed.* 229. Chairman.—What type of entertainments? Is it generally a reception, or lunch, or dinner?—Dinners, luncheons and receptions. Dinners would be for representatives of other countries or members of foreign organisations?—Yes, and distinguished visitors to Ireland. 230. I merely want to know how these matters are arranged. There is no fixed rule I suppose; you deal with the matters as and when they arise?—As they come up and as the Minister feels they should be handled. 231. Under subhead A.6—Cultural Relations with Other Countries—what is the position of this Grant-in-Aid now? I see that in this case there was a saving of £7,377 1s. 6d. which presumably remains? —That has since been expended.† 232. Under A.7 there is “Official Hand-Book of Ireland”—this had dropped?— At that time it has been dropped. Deputy Briscoe.—It is now in circulation again?—It appears in the subsequent year’s accounts. We all got copies of this. It was published during the visit of the Inter-Parliamentary Union?—Yes. Chairman.—Is that the publication that we received yesterday?—yes, that is the publication. 233. Would it be fair to ask you what it cost?—It is a fair question, but I do not have the information. I can get it for you if you wish.* You can let us know what the cost of the publication was subsequently. I am reminded that it will come up next year. 234. Deputy Sheldon.—Perhaps Mr. Nunan could expand the explanatory note on page 252 under subhead B.1, particularly the bit relating to the fact that exchange compensation was not payable in the case of certain officers serving abroad. How did that arise?—We were able to obtain better rates of exchange than had been anticipated. That is also mentioned in the note, but it is mentioned by itself. It says: “Due to rates of exchange proving more favourable”, but it also mentions that exchange compensation was not payable in the case of certain officers. Apparently it had been thought it would be payable and I wondered if there was any particular reason why it had not to be paid?— I think it was merely because they were able to get better rates of exchange and the sum set aside for exchange compensation, therefore, was not used to the extent anticipated. 235. Deputy Briscoe.—How do we pay our representatives abroad? Do we pay them in the currency of the country they are living in?—Yes. 236. A certain amount of money is collected in these foreign service centres, in some places perhaps more than others. Is not that money used to defray certain outlays there, including salaries, wages and so forth; and it is only the difference that would be dealt with through the Exchequer here or be sent from here? In America, for instance, there is a very substantial income from dollars for visas. Do those dollars go into the funds of the Embassy or the Consulate and are expenses defrayed out of them and then does a book-keeping transaction ensue between the Department of External Affairs and the Exchequer? Mr. Wann.—I think that is right. Mr. Nunan.—These funds are brought to account as Extra Exchequer Receipts. 237. Deputy Briscoe.—In the first instance they are used to meet outlay and if there is a surplus it is surrendered or, if there is a deficiency, it has to be made up in the ordinary way and only then would compensation for exchange rates arise?—I think that would be correct. 238. Is there any clear statement to show to what extent our foreign service charge is generally met and offset by income from abroad?—I cannot trace that here. Mr. Wann.—You could not trace it from this account. A number of receipts do not appear here at all, but I am sure it could be got. 239. Deputy Briscoe.—I am sure you would know, Mr. Nunan, what the total receipts would be on all your foreign exchange branches?—These receipts are brought to account in the Revenue Account. 240. I think it would be a good thing for us to know to what extent our foreign service actually relieves the cost to the taxpayer as a result of substantial income for services rendered and so forth. I know that External Affairs, for instance, renders a service looking after the interests of Irish nationals who become claimants for bequests abroad. That is an excellent service as compared with what it used to be in the past. There is a substantial amount of money for visas, particularly in America, and I think it would be a good thing to know whether in fact our foreign service is to its full extent a burden on the taxpayer or to what extent the taxpayer is relieved? 241. Deputy S. Collins.—Again, under subhead B.1. the note says: “Savings due to vacancies in staff”—are vacancies in staff considerable in number?—For a considerable period during that year several posts were were not filled. That difficulty does not arise now apparently. Your staffs are up to full strength and your posts generally are filled?—Yes, with possibly one or two exceptions. 242. Arising out of Deputy Briscoe’s question? Are the services of our consular service generally used in relation to the claiming of bequests in other Countries or is it more usual for an attorney here to have an agent in the country in which the bequest falls as distinct from any service rendered by Consulate or Embassy?—It varies. For instance, in intestacies and Public Administrators’ accounts in New York the Consul General handles them in many cases without an attorney. If they are “open and shut” cases that is the usual procedure. If there is any difficulty the permission or sanction of the beneficiary is sought for the employment of an attorney there. In other cases an attorney here will ask the Consul General to handle the matter, or will have an agent himself to handle it for him. That is what I was driving at; there is quite an incidence of direct agents as between attorneys here and in America? —Yes. 243. Deputy S. Collins.—Is it sufficiently revenue-earning to warrant more propaganda being used here to inform a lot of people of the type of service that is available at the consulate?—I could not say. 244. Chairman.—It is no benefit to the revenue, anyway?—Yes, we have now 5 per cent. commission. Deputy S. Collins.—That is what I am after—because there is a charge. Chairman.—I do not know whether that appears in the account. 245. Deputy Briscoe.—You are aware that we have asked the Board of Works to prepare a list for us of all the buildings or property that External Affairs has, so that we can see the costs and rents; but again in this Vote there does not appear to be any reference to that particular matter. We were talking at the last meeting about this New York Consular Office. What I have in mind is that we should have a complete statement regarding this Department of State showing exactly what the costs are, the net cost to the taxpayer. Deputy S. Collins.—Deputy Briscoe is anxious to get a statement where you can see the receipts and issues, and then the net cost? 246. Deputy Briscoe.—Yes, not to be as having part of the expense charged to the Board of Works or some other Department. We do not know in fact, what our foreign Consular service costs us. 247. Deputy Sheldon.—The Consul General’s office in New York is subject to a rent of 20,000 dollars. Who actually pays that—the Department of External Affairs or the Board of Works?—The Board of Works. 248. So that part of the cost of External Affairs is really borne by the Board of Works?—Yes. Deputy S. Collins.—Quite a considerable portion, as regards Consular service?—All rents are paid, not by the Department but by the Board of Works. 249. And all capital expenditure by way of purchase of premises for the Consular service?—Yes. Deputy S. Collins.—It is very difficult to find out what External Affairs costs. Chairman.—At the end of the Estimate you find “Public Works and Buildings.” The usual note at the end of each Vote as presented to the Dáil gives an estimated amount included in other Estimates in connection with this service. For the year in question, there is. Vote 10, Public Works and Buildings, £30,088. 250. Deputy Sheldon.—I had the curiosity to look up Vote 10 to see what they proposed to spend this £30,088 on; and adding up everything that they charged for External Affairs I got the figure of £31,268, so I am now curious to know what the Board of Works proposes to expend £1,200 on, that the Department of External Affairs did not ask them to spend?—I am afraid that will not be our responsibility. I could not explain that one. Deputy Sheldon.—I think this Committee is bound to take an interest in that, where a Department says on its Estimate that under another Vote so much is to be expended on their account and then you turn up the other Vote and find they are not proposing to spend that amount at all but a different amount. I think our job is to discover where the discrepancy arose and how it arose. 251. Chairman.—What is the responsibility of the Accounting Officer? Has he any responsibility for these items referred to at the end of the Estimate? Deputy S. Collins.—It would be interesting to the Committee to find out where responsibility lies, because when we were dealing with the Board of Works’ end of the Estimate we were told by Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh that External Affairs directed certain things to be done and they had no voice in it. The responsibility must lie with one or other of the Accounting Officers. 252. Deputy Sheldon.—It seems to me to be slackness in the preparation of the Estimates. Where the same facts are being dealt with and the two Departments produce different figures for them. Chairman.—Perhaps our Clerk will keep a note of that one. 253. Deputy Briscoe.—What would the Auditor-General’s view be on the suggestion I have made that there should be some kind of a balance sheet prepared showing the actual expenses of External Affairs whether directly on this Vote or through other Departments and all the incomes of that Department, so as to show the net cost of External Affairs? Deputy S. Collins.—An ordinary profit and loss account. Mr. Wann.—That could be done, but it would be a bit invidious to do it for External Affairs only. 254. Deputy S. Collins.—I quite agree with the Comptroller and Auditor-General. If you are going to do it in relation to any Department, it should be done generally, wherever there are Departments that carry portion of their Votes on other Votes. 255. Deputy Sheldon.—On the other hand, particularly with regard to anything that is done by the Board of Works, where you have moneys spent abroad on property, I think we ought to take special steps with regard to External Affairs, because the Board of Works, which is the agency to buy these properties, has not the same control over the purchase of properties abroad as it would have over property at home where they can send their valuer. Therefore, I think that there is a special case to be made for External Affairs with regard to properties abroad. Deputy S. Collins.—It would be dangerous if they sent the valuer abroad, in view of places to which he was sent at home. 256. Mr. Nunan.—With regard to the purchase, which does not appear here, of the new Embassy in Washington, the Board of Works did have their Chief Architect there, who examined the property before it was purchased and approved of it. 257. Deputy S. Collins.—We did learn from the Board of Works on the last occasion that in connection with one property in New York it was tantamount to the gun being put to their head and they were told: “You pay for that.” They certainly were not consulted and certainly did not send a valuer?—That was not a purchase. I am speaking of the purchase Deputy Sheldon spoke about, that they did have an architect who examined it before it was purchased. 258. Deputy Sheldon.—Do they do that with regard to all properties abroad?— They do. No matter how minor it might be, even where a Consular office is rented?—Purchase, you were speaking of. The Consular offices are all rentals. 259. Chairman.—What happened in this particular case? We understood from Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh that the Board of Works had not been consulted in the matter of the Consulate General in New York?—I was speaking of the purchase of the Embassy in Washington. Deputy S. Collins.—We will find that out next year. 260. Chairman.—What is the position of the other? What the Committee is interested in is fixing the responsibility, if the Accounting Officer of the Board of Works comes here and tells this Committee he knows nothing about it?—This is with regard to the Consulate General premises in New York? Yes. Could you throw any light on it? —The circumstances are as follows. The Consulate General previously was in the Chrysler Building. We needed extra space. At that time, these premises at No. 33 50th Street, New York, became available. They were inspected by senior officers in the Department of External Affairs. They were considered highly suitable for the Consulate General and so far as I know the recommendation was made that they should be leased from the lessee at the time, which was Aerlínte. 261. What was the position about the offices for the Consulate General before that?—We had premises leased in the Chrysler Building. We had eight rooms there. They were not sufficient for the purpose. These other premises became available then. They were more suitable and, in fact, perhaps there was more space actually than we needed, but we had in mind that part would be leased. 262. Deputy S. Collins.—It turned out that there was considerably more space than was needed?—Right now the surplus space available there is the fifth floor, consisting of four or five small offices and one larger one, plus, I think, two or three rooms on the floor below that. 263. As well as that, there is a part of it leased already at £1,000 a year?—One office, plus some showroom space leased to the Tourist Association. 264. The one point that was puzzling us with regard to the New York Consulate was this. We know this office was purchased and designed for the purpose of an air office and for that purpose a lot of money was expended, amounting to some thing over £20,000 on office renovation. The Department of External Affairs took over this office from Aerlínte and paid that large sum, which was due for structural alterations made in the building. Is it suggested that the structural alterations carried out to convert these into suitable premises for air offices meet the requirements of a Consulate General?— In the main, they did, but there were certain other alterations which were made on the ground floor in respect of the public office of the Consulate General. 265. There is another question, to finish this matter. We were told by the Board of Works that they did not inspect those premises, did not have anything to do with it, that they were just told to pay for them. Is that what did transpire, from your Department end?—That they were just told to pay for it? I—— They were told by your Department that it had been inspected by your Department officials and they were satisfied with that and the Board was to go ahead and acquire it?—I would like to look that up; I could not say at the moment. 266. Chairman.—Could you have got any other accommodation for your purpose? You took advantage of the opportunity to obtain this? What the Committee is wondering whether the bargain made by Aerlínte was a good one? —When they purchased or we purchased from them? Deputy Briscoe.—When you purchased from them? 267. Chairman.—You had to purchase having due regard to what they paid?—It was a perfectly suitable transfer and was so considered. 268. Deputy S. Collins.—What troubled this Committee when we came to deal with the Consulate General in New York was all the money we spent taking over the liabilities of Aerlínte. We are committed to some 400,000 dollars by way of lease as distinct from rates?—Twenty thousand dollars a year. Plus rates. 269. Deputy Briscoe.—Have you any idea of what the rates are?—I have not. 270. My own personal view—I do not know to what extent the Committee will hold with me—is that we had offices in Chrysler Building and from my own knowledge of Chrysler Building there is no shortage of offices there. Additional offices could easily be had, as there are very many floors. I do not know on exactly what floor the Consular offices were situated, but we were paying a certain rent for the Chrysler Building offices and then suddenly we move out. Could we be told what the rent of the Chrysler Building offices were?—Twelve thousand dollars a year. 271. Rates were not attached to that?—No. 272. Deputy S.Collins.—There was no very large capital expenditure by your Department for reconstruction of those offices?—No large capital expenditure. 273. Deputy Briscoe.—The position is that we go into offices—I am not questioning Mr. Nunan’s opinion as to their suitability—which are, for a start, 8,000 dollars a year dearer. We know that there is an income of £1,000 for some sub-leased. portion, but we know that that will probably be eaten up by what is called over there “city taxation” and we do not yet know what that is. It appears to us to be rather a coincidence that simultaneously with the closing of Aerlínte the Department of External Affairs finds this location very suitable and takes it over, reimbursing Aerlínte £20,000, as Deputy Collins said, for expenditure made by them for their purposes. After spending that £20,000, more money—we do not know the amount—has to be spent to reconvert the premises to suit Consular offices. Higher policy may be involved in the whole transaction, but we want to get as much information as possible—Certainly I do in order to make up my mind what my view will be about the whole procedure. We do know—it was made quite clear by the Board of Works—that they are not responsible in any way. They were presented with a fait accompli. When it was all finished they were told: “It is your baby”. 274. Deputy S. Collins.—I have here before me a script of the evidence on the Board of Works estimate. Deputy Sheldon questions the matter with Mr. Ó hEigceartuigh:— “In this event were the Commissioners satisfied?—They were not consulted. They were not consulted in this case? —No. Deputy S. Collins.—That is the answer we were looking for.” The Commissioners say definitely that they were not consulted. 275. Chairman.—What is the position about this consultation with the Commissioners of the Board of Works while premises are being acquired?—When premises are being acquired they are always consulted. By acquired you mean purchased? Purchased or rented?—They are always consulted whether it is a purchase or rental. 276. Deputy S. Collins.—Is there any reason why they should not be consulted in this case? The Board of Works evidence is quite definite and positive that they were not consulted. Is this unprecedented?—I think it is. 277. Deputy Briscoe.—From the manner in which we have been accustomed to understand State dealings of this kind—I am sure the Auditor-General will have a view on them—would it not, in the first instance, be more proper to have said to Aerlínte when they closed down: “You have spent £20,000. We will make that’ good out of some other fund rather than throw that £20,000 on the back of the Department” and let the Department go ahead without having to consider that £20,000 capital but only the rental. It appears to me to be rather high handed. Chairman.—There are certain advantages in the fait accompli from the point of view of the people who are interested. Deputy Sheldon.—It is a most convenient way of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Deputy S. Collins.—And to avoid difficult book transactions or paper transactions between the Departments. 278. Deputy Briscoe.—We should like full details about the property. We did not have a lease in the Chrysler Building for 20 years?—It was a seven-year lease. The time had expired?—It had one and a half or two years to go. Which we have to forfeit. Deputy Sheldon.—The forfeit was very low, 411 dollars. 279. Deputy Briscoe.—Where is the place situated?—It is 33 East 50th Street, just behind St. Patrick’s Cathedral, between Madison Avenue at one end and Park Avenue at the other. 280. Is it far from other Consular offices or is it considered more suitable to have it there?—There are quite a number in the Rockefeller Centre, which is just a block across. In office buildings?—Yes. 281. Chairman.—Could you say if the usual procedure in securing premises is to have to take a lease over a prolonged period in New York?—Yes. The Consulate General lease was seven years and that was the only office we had in New York. 282. Deputy S. Collins.—We took the new office on a 20 years’ lease. The lease had triplets as it is 20 years now?—With a break at 15 years. 283. Chairman.—Under B.2—all expenses of transfer of staff are paid?—Of going abroad and returning home, yes. 284. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—Are their families included too?—Yes, for wives and dependent children under 21. 285. On holidays as well as going abroad for the first time?—Yes, when they are entitled to holidays. 286. Deputy S. Collins.—Is there any particular reason, in the case of a member of the Consular staff, a widower, say, with a daughter over 21 who is housekeeping, why she should not be paid on transfer?— In exceptional circumstances I understand that her expenses may be paid. 287. The rule in general is that they must be under 21, but there is sufficient flexibility?—Certain dependent children over 21 are allowed. 288. Chairman—The increase under B.3 —Postage, Stationery, Telegrams and Telephones—was very substantial?—For the same reason which obtained on the previous one, O.E.E.C. and an increase in other activities. 289. Are there special rates for diplomatic and semi-diplomatic messages by cable or long-distance ’phone?—No. 290. Deputy Briscoe.—In these two items, telegrams and telephones, are these figures the actual net amount paid to external postage administrations as distinct from our own internal charges?— Subhead B.3. deals with the charges abroad. There would be a higher charge if our own local charge were included? This is just what is paid out once you have crossed the Border? Mr. Wann.—It would be the payment to the Post Office here, who would adjust the matter with the foreign post office. Deputy Briscoe.—It would be the net charges? Mr. Wann.—This is the gross charge including domestic charges. Deputy Briscoe.—In both cases? Mr. Wann.—Abroad it would work in reverse. It would be paid to the local postal administration. 291. Chairman.—In fact who does bear the responsibility if there is a prolonged series of calls about some important matter to Washington? Is it you or Washington who would bear the cost? Mr. Nunan.—The office in which the call originates. Deputy S. Collins.—They do not reverse charges?—No. 292. Chairman.—With regard to the last note on B.6, what happened to this messenger in the Paris legation?—He defaulted to the extent of £12 14s. 0d. and we owed him salary to the extent of £1 9s. 10d., so the loss was £11 4s. 2d. He was prosecuted outside, for other offences over there and we did not prosecute him in that case. He was not an Irish national?—No. 293. Is it the policy to employ locals for these subordinate posts? Deputy S. Collins.—Nearly all the labour for minor posts in the Consulates is recruited locally?—Yes. 294. It is general for Consulates in Ireland to recruit the same type of labour here?—Yes. 295. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the loss of Consular service stamps in transit from New York to Washington, would it not be possible where valuables of that type are being sent to insure them or were these lost in some peculiar way?—They were lost in ordinary postal transit. The Consulate General carries all the stocks of stamps but the legation in Washington needed stamps in a hurry. Normally they are sent by registered mail, which takes longer than the ordinary mail, but in this case, as they were needed in a hurry, they were sent by ordinary mail, and unfortunately they did not reach Washington. Actually, there was no loss except the cost of the paper and gum.. Deputy Briscoe.—It is a notional loss. Deputy S. Collins.—I gather that they will not experiment again by sending them by ordinary post. Festina lente. 296. Chairman.—With regard to extra remuneration, is there any explanation of the duties?—That was paid to a clerical officer who was performing duties of a higher grade for a period of about a year. Deputy S. Collins.—You did not break your heart. 297. Deputy Briscoe.—Are you satisfied that offices such as we have in London and America are adequately staffed? I myself feel from observation—I may be all wrong—that they could be regarded as understaffed?—London is definitely understaffed. What is the reason? I have two distinct views: that some of our offices are understaffed and some of our officials in the Consular Service are underpaid—— Chairman.—I am afraid that we cannot pursue that matter here. Deputy Briscoe.—Understaffing, we can —when you have underpaid men doing overtime. 298. Deputy S. Collins.—That is hardly a matter for the Accounting Officer. It is a matter of policy. Is the staffing position abroad becoming a problem? Do you feel that you have not got the very best type of personnel for the type of job in some of the Consular offices, men of a particularly high standard of intelligence? —I think we have. 299. Then what is your staffing problem abroad?—A shortage of staff in certain posts in certain missions. Are these shortages by way of vacancies in establishment or by way of not having sufficient establishment—Not having sufficient establishment, by reason of increased volume of work arising over the past year or two. You feel generally with regard to the staffing position that there is room for an increased establishment in some of the Consular Services?—I do. 300. Chairman.—Do you fill these Consulships from local persons? Are they engaged in trade?—The Consuls and Vice-Consuls? Yes?—No; they are all established civil servants. 301. We are given details of the extra receipts on page 251. The Finance Accounts give the details in Account No. 12, and show the receipts from passports, visas and Consular Services as a net £23,837 19s. 0. and travel permits, £1,735 10s. 0d. 302. Deputy Briscoe.—Is that for all-over or only what is issued here in Dublin?—It is for all-over. 303. Chairman.—“Profit on exchange of proceeds of stamps used”—what does that mean?—A visa fee, for instance, in America was two dollars and the corresponding pre-devaluation amount in sterling, in which our stamps are issued, would be 9/11. We do not have a 9/11 stamp and we would use, perhaps, a 9/6 stamp and make a profit on that of 5d. 304. I see an item: “Accumulated balances on dead accounts” of £485 10s. 0d. What does that represent? —It represents accumulated sums on various accounts for the past eight or ten years, such as sums paid in respect of travel documents at the beginning of the last war. The persons who paid them did not come back for their passports or they died. The passport was not issued and that amount accumulated and was held in suspense on the books and eventually brought into account to credit. There was no chance, so far as we could see, of tracing the person who made the payment. 305. Deputy S. Collins.—“Proceeds of sale of empty cases used in conveying effects of an officer transferred to a new post—£45 1s. 10d.” I should like to know what was the cost of the cases. Chairman.—That inevitably raises Deputy Collins’ question. What did it cost us to buy the cases?—We do not have that figure. We will have to have it now, I am afraid, to satisfy the Deputy’s curiosity.* 306. In the notes, page 253, there is a reference to the inter-Governmental Committee on Refugees. Is this Committee still in existence?—Its successor is, but we are not members of it. 307. Deputy S. Collins.—The Department of External Affairs are not members of that Committee?—No. 308. Deputy Kitt.—I notice that gramophone records and music were distributed. What was the nature of these?—These were gramophone records which were sent abroad to some of our missions and which were loaned to societies, for instance, or used at receptions. Deputy S. Collins.—Could you tell us what type of music they played? Was it all traditional Irish airs?—Yes, most of them were. 309. Deputy Briscoe.—There is an item, on page 253 in the notes, of £59 11s. 0d., expended in sending abroad copies of the speech of the Minister for External Affairs introducing the Estimate and his statement on External policy winding up the debate. Was this the sending of the Official Debates or extracts specially roneoed off?—They were printed copies that we sent to a large mailing list. 310. Is that not an unusual procedure? Is this a new departure?—It was in connection with the publicising of our attitude towards the Atlantic Pact. 311. Ever since the establishment of the State, every Minister for External Affairs, in his introduction of his Estimate and his winding-up speech, has referred to what, in that particular year, was the most outstanding and important External Affairs matter and it could equally be said in all these cases that their speeches should have been printed and mailed. Would it not have been more advisable to send the whole verbatim report?— These were merely extracts from the Minister’s speech dealing with the position with regard to the Atlantic Pact which it was considered advisable to publicise widely. 312. Deputy S. Collins.—Who was responsible for the decision to publicise these widely, and was this a new type of departure for the Department?—So far as I know, it was a new departure. Deputy Sheldon.—Everything has to have a beginning. 313. Deputy S. Collins.—I have not yet got an answer to part of my question. Was it a direction from the Minister?— It was. Deputy Sheldon.—I should say that it was a perfectly normal thing to do. Deputy Briscoe.—I cannot agree with Deputy Sheldon that, when various views are expressed during a debate in the Dáil, an extract should be taken from the verbatim report of the Dáil proceedings and circulated in this manner. Chairman.—The Minister is stating Government policy on some important matter. Deputy Briscoe.—Would we be entitled to ask to be shown a copy of what was circulated? Deputy Sheldon.—These were extracts. Deputy Briscoe.—“Copies of the Minister’s speech introducing the Estimate.” It does not say extracts. Chairman.—I suppose it was that portion of the Minister’s speech dealing with the particular matter he wished to have circulated?—That is my recollection, but I can confirm it and get copies of it for the Committee. VOTE 76—ORGANISATION FOR EUROPEAN ECONOMIC CO-OPERATION.Mr. Seán Nunan further examined.314. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor General in paragraph No. 80 on this Vote says:— “Subhead A.—Contribution towards the Expenses of the Organisation. The charge of £12,275 7s. 0d. to this subhead is the amount of the contribution towards the expenses of the organisation for the first budgetary period 16th April, 1948, to 30th June, 1949. I understand that the accounts of the organisation for this period closed with a surplus of receipts, and that this country’s share of the surplus will be credited in relief of the contribution payable in respect of the budgetary period 1st July, 1949, to 30th June, 1950.” Mr. Nunan.—This sum was credited to our subsequent payments. 315. Chairman.—With regard to subhead A—Contribution towards the Expenses of the Organisation—is this a static amount or does it vary from year to year? —It varies according to the expenses of the organisation. It is assessed on a national income basis. 316. Have you representatives on the permanent staff there? Have the participating countries an opportunity occasionally of having members placed on the permanent staff?—There are Irish nationals employed on the permanent staff. 317. Deputy S. Collins.—Does the number of Irish nationals employed on the permanent staff bear any relation, as regards the staffing position of the organisation, to the contribution which we make to it?—I am afraid I cannot answer that question. 318. Chairman.—I take it that the contribution under subhead B is determined yearly—that is, the contribution to the Working Capital Fund of the organisation?—No. That is a single payment and remains to our credit. The witness withdrew. VOTE 32—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE.Mr. T. J. Coyne called and examined.319. Deputy S. Collins.—With regard to subhead A.1.—Headquarters Staff—could you tell the Committee what was the cost in the way of increased remuneration and the saving due to vacancies not being filled and to what extent vacancies occurred on the staff?—I do not think I could tell what was the cost in the way of increased remuneration off-hand. I think the increase was due to the general increase in the public services. 320. What we are anxious to try and get is what was the cost of that increase in your Department and what was the saving due to vacancies not being filled. We are anxious to know what is the staff position in the Department now?—I have not got the figures before me, but I will supply them to the Committee or to the Deputy personally. I can tell the Committee that the occasion of. this saving was due to the delay in filling vacancies, which regularly occurs. At the moment, we have staff vacancies in the Department which remain unfilled by reason of the fact that the Civil Service Commissioners are not in a position to give us the replacements we require. There is nearly always a time lag between the occurrence of a vacancy and the filling of it. 321. Does that leave you with increased difficulties in the Department?—Well, obviously, a delay in getting replacements does cause us administrative difficulties. That is a difficulty we have experienced for a great many years and is probably common to the service generally. I think that the Civil Service Commissioners themselves are aware of the embarrassment which is caused to Departments where vacancies are left unfilled for an unduly long period, and have been considering whether they can speed the business up. 322. Do these vacancies which apparently your Department is suffering from at the moment involve the remainder of your staff in a good deal of excess work and overtime?—Not so much overtime though in the minor grades where overtime is payable, if vacancies for typing staff or writing assistants staff remain unfilled, we have ocasionally to put the staff on overtime. I think that at the moment our typing staff is on overtime, and that we have some vacancies on that staff at present. We certainly have vacancies on the clerical staff at the moment. I think the Committee will find that this difficulty is not peculiar to the Department of Justice. Our only purpose in pursuing it is to see what the staffing position is and whether the Committee should make any recommendations on it?—If the Deputy wants to know how much of the saving is attributable to the non-filling of vacancies and how much to increased remuneration, I am afraid I cannot give the figure, but I can supply the information.* 323. Chairman.—On subhead A.3.— Censorship of Publications—is there any report from this body?—Yes, it furnishes the Minister with a report. We got a report no later than yesterday, and I think I am correct in saying that the report is made available in the Oireachtas Library. 324. Deputy S. Collins.—The note to the subhead states that one post for which provision was made remained unfilled for the year. Has that post since been filled?—We received sanction for the filling of that post last week. I think it remained unfilled during the whole of the financial year immediately following the year which the Committee is dealing with. It will be filled now, I hope, at no far distant date. 325. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to the Extra Receipts, there is reference to the amount received in the way of fees for documents of identity. What are the documents of identity referred to?—These refer chiefly to so-called Stateless persons. If a refugee comes to this country, not having the usual passport or other document of identity issued by his country of origin, the Minister for Justice can, if he thinks fit, give him a certificate of identity. There are special provisions which apply to Russian and Armenian refugees. You have there a problem which has been left over from the League of Nations Organisation—the Nansen stamp case. The type of person that is issued with a document of identity is, generally speaking, a Stateless person. 326. What is the fee charged?—The application for a document of identity must furnish the Department with three copies of his photograph and pay a fee of 12/6. The certificate is valid for one year from the date of issue, and may be renewed for a further period of one year on the payment of 12/6. 327. Are there a considerable number of these?—Yes, a fair number. For the financial year in question there were new issues of such certificates to the number of 237, while 65 existing certificates were renewed. 328. Deputy S. Collins.—Would it be possible to indicate where, in the main, these types of nationals come from?— From my general knowledge, I surmise that these are Central Europeans: Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Czechs and a small percentage of Armenians and Russians. The latter pay an additional 5/- for the Nansen stamp. I think I am right in saying that most of the refugees are from the so-called Iron Curtain countries. 329. I see under the Extra Receipts that a film projector was sold. Did it belong to the police department or the film censor’s department?—It was sold by public auction. It was, of course, in the film censor’s office, and was sold by public auction. Chairman.—Judging by the amount realised, it must not have been in a very good state?—No, I strongly suspect it was not. 330. I see under Extra Remuneration that an Administrative Officer received a gratuity for the performance of extra duties. What is the explanation of that? —That was a gratuity that was paid to the Secretary of the Awards for Bravery Committee. He is an ordinary Administrative Officer. He had special work in connection with this committee which involved long hours, in one way or another, and it was felt proper to give him this gratuity. 331. Arising out of the point that was made by Deputy Collins about unfilled vacancies, there is a note here which says that the Account includes expenditure of approximately £1,541 in respect of remuneration of staff temporarily lent, without repayment, to other Departments and offices. That would seem to be a fairly substantial amount. Is there any particular reason for it, or is this a normal occurrence?—I just cannot recall off-hand what the staff was. For periods of less than six months?— Of course, the staff is lent for the public convenience; that is the principle of it. I have not before me particulars of how this staff is composed or who the individual officers were. I cannot reconcile the apparently inconsistent practice that we were loaning staff at a time when we had vacancies unfilled. I do not know what is the answer to that question. There might be special technical reasons?—I suspect there were. VOTE 33—GARDA SÍOCHÁNA.Mr. T. J. Coyne further examined.332. Deputy S. Collins.—As to subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Pay—it appears to me that you had increased remuneration for the Garda Síochána at this period?—I think the increased remuneration was granted in the previous year. 333. Taking the fact that there had been an increase in pay and that the figure of expenditure was less than granted, does that show that there was a considerable number of vacancies in the Force?—The Police Force was not up to its full authorised strength. Was there a considerable difference between the establishment strength and the actual personnel?—There is a difference between the authorised strength and the actual strength. I think the Police increase in pay did not come until the following year. 334. Would it be possible to indicate how much under strength on the basis of the authorised strength the Force was at that time?—That maximum strength authorised by the Acts is 7,702 all ranks, and the strength that we made provision for is 7,494. We did make a deduction there for a number of vacancies occurring in the year. We estimated at the beginning of the year for a strength of 7,494, but we did make a deduction of some £24,000 in the Estimate for a number of vacancies. 335. Deputy Briscoe.—As to subhead D —Locomotion Expenses—would it be possible to tell us how much of the surplus was due to the General Election as distinct from the 1798 celebration and the cycling allowance?—I do not know whether it would be possible, but I certainly have not got the figures in front of me. It might be possible, but obviously it would entail an enormous amount of work. Is this exclusively due to the activities of the Gardaí at election work?—I am so advised. 336. It cannot be .suggested that it is due to Ministers running around in cars? —No, I can certainly repudiate unequivocally any such suggestion. Deputy Briscoe.—That is what I want to get on record, because the phraseology could be utilised otherwise. Deputy S. Collins.—You are not suggesting that there was not a considerable amount of mileage done by Ministers as a result of the election? Deputy Briscoe.—A lot was said about that on the hustings, and I want to get it clear that that is not involved in it. Chairman.—Is it included?—No, I think there is a misunderstanding here. The transport of Ministers comes under subhead H. Deputy Briscoe.—There are savings on that. 337. Deputy Sheldon.—As to subhead E —Clothing and Equipment—there is a reference to an increase in contract prices. Does that mean that you had estimated that certain equipment would be got at a certain price and that when the contracts came to be made there were increased prices? It does not mean that there were contracts already made which were subject to a rise?—I presume that a contract that was already made would have to be fulfilled unless there was an escape clause in it and, so far as I am aware, there is no escape clause in general; there may be in the present abnormal situation. I assume, however, that any contract that have been firmly entered into have been carried out and that the excess under this head is in respect of contracts that were not entered into at the time we were estimating and which resulted in heavier expenditure than anticipated because the cost of the articles had gone up meanwhile. I have in front of me particulars showing increased costs of various articles. 338. Deputy Collins.—Would any of this have arisen as a result of getting more deliveries than you might have anticipated of certain type of goods?— You are quite right. Nothing is more certain. You will see that the excess is attributed to two things, one of which is belated delivery, that is to say, that we got during this year stuff that was ordered in the previous year. Then there is a second leg to that. It so happened that, by an unlucky coincidence in this year, the contractors delivered all the stuff we had contracted for within the financial year. Normally, there is a substantial hang over. When we are estimating, we make some allowance for the fact that we will not get all we ordered, but this year we got all the stuff up to date. 339. What is the situation with regard to clothing and equipment; are you abreast of your requirements?—So far as the accounting year in question is concerned, we were all right. I would not care to prophesy what the future will be. We made an issue of clothing to the Gardaí between June and September this year and for the moment we are all right. Beyond that I should not care to speculate. 340. Chairman.—When prices are tending to rise, as they have been, whose responsibility would it be as far as the Gardaí are concerned to look in advance and make the necessary purchases?—It is primarily our responsibility in the Department of Justice to use such foresight as the ordinary reasonable, prudent man would use. But the general question as to whether there should be stock piling in anticipation of higher prices is a question of general Government finance and we are in the hands of the Department of Finance in that matter. It is not for me to say what their policy is, but I think I can say that, in general, it is not easy to get financial sanction to lay in double or treble supplies in any particular year in anticipation that prices will be higher in one, two or three years’ time, nor would the Public Accounts Committee, I think, approve in general of such a practice. 341. As to subhead H—Transport and Carriage—the savings arise entirely from the provision for replacement. Can you say what proportion of the total expenditure would normally be attributed to replacements; it does not indicate a saving in the actual running of transport during the period. 342. Deputy S. Collins.—You did not buy all the new cars you expected to buy? —If you want the precise details, I can tell you what happened. First of all, we estimated for a substantial sum for the replacement of machine tools. I should say that accounted for about £1,200. 343. That is for the depot workshop?— Yes. We did not buy these. In addition, we estimated for a certain fleet of replacement cars and said we would buy so many 10 h.p. cars, so many V8s, so many trucks, etc. We did not buy the full number that we had contemplated buying at the beginning of the year and in certain cases we substituted a cheaper type of car for the more expensive type. We substituted 10 h.p. cars for V8 cars. That is in general what happened. 344. Chairman.—You are satisfied that the matter of maintenance and repair is satisfactory as compared with getting the work done outside?—I have no hesitation in saying that I think it is. We have a first-class sergeant in charge of the shops. I do not think we would do better if we were to go outside. 345. Deputy S.Collins.—Is the recruitment for the workshops from trained mechanics or from Garda personnel?— There has not been any recruitment for some time, but in the past it has always been for trained mechanics. They get a special allowance, of course; we give them proficiency pay. 346. Is the position actually that in this branch of maintenance there has been no recruitment—that in the depot workshops there has been no recruitment?—That is so. In so far as the employees are policemen, there has not been any recruitment. Or any recruitment of civilian employees?—No. 347. Would it be possible to indicate what your staff position is in the depot workshops; are you understaffed?—I have no reason to suppose that we are. I think the position is satisfactory. Deputy Briscoe.—It is only fair to say that none of us has any knowledge of being pulled out of bed at night time to help a Garda with a car. The cars appear to be quite satisfactorily looked after. 348. Chairman.—Did I understand you to say that you had looked at the costing side of this and you were satisfied with if?—I cannot claim to be a professional accountant or costing expert, but I am advised by people whom I believe to be competent in this matter and, from the accountancy point of view, I do not think there is anything astray. If there were anything astray it would not pass the scrutiny of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. 349. Deputy Collins.—There is nothing abnormal about the cost?—I do not think so. 350. Chairman.—We had, years ago, an examination into the Post Office factory and the production of bread, for example, under the Army authorities. One knows that, since there is a permanent staff being maintained, irrespective of the amount of work which has to be done— it may be greater or less-there is a nice question sometimes as to whether you have more staff than is required for the amount of work that may have to be done. There is also the question whether, in that case, the cost might not be somewhat higher than it would be, we will say, if it were being done by mechanics from outside who were brought in specially. You are paying a staff, you are providing; all the overheads, power and all the rest of it, and while it is probably cheaper to do the work in that way, still it is not entirely economic at times. It depends a good deal on the sort of staff, of course, and in the case of a big organisation like this I daresay it is the only possible way to deal with it. 351. Deputy S. Collins.—To clear up what is in the Chairman’s mind, could you indicate the number of vehicles for the maintenance of which this unit would be responsible?—In the year in question, some 128 vehicles of various types. The point you are raising now appears to arise under subhead. A. This subhead is concerned merely with the provision of transport. The question is whether there is any redundancy in the Transport Branch. 352. The Chairman is raising the general question as to whether it is good economy to have a unit that might not have sufficient work to keep it at full capacity at times and whether a better system would not be to bring in outside contractors. If I had the figures as to the strength of the unit and the number of cars, it would satisfy me as to the necessity for this unit?—The general answer to that objection, I conceive to be that a policeman’s life, as has been said, is not a happy one. These people who may have a comfortable billet in the transport section are liable to be called on to “man the walls” in case of emergency. If they are called upon, they cannot say “We are transport men and we cannot be sent out on other duties.” They are liable to be called upon to perform normal police duties, but I suspect it is only rarely that that happens. 353. I am sure your suspicions are well founded?—I can say with confidence that they are required on some occasions to perform ordinary police duties, but what I am even more sure of is that the Commissioner goes through this thing with a fine comb to ensure that you have not skilled mechanics hanging around doing nothing but smoking cigarettes. I have no reason to believe that they are not fully employed. Chairman.—Would you take in a man to this section merely for the purpose of having such extra men available in case of emergency?—There has not been any recruitment, so we have no extra men available for the last couple of years. 354. Deputy S. Collins.—I suppose the transport personnel would be available to do ordinary routine barrack duty like that of barrack orderly?—That is so. These men then correspond to certain types we get into the Army who are available for “stand to” duty?—That is right. The regulations provide specifically that men may be recruited for specific purposes. If you have to recruit men in a specific category, they have to go through normal police training?—Yes. 355. Deputy Briscoe.—There is first of all the question of security which is the primary consideration. It would be very awkward if we had to depend on the ordinary channels of trade to look after Government transport and police transport. 356. Deputy S. Collins.—You have told us that you have now at least 128 vehicles to look after apart from ministerial cars. Surely that provides an adequate amount of work. 357. Deputy Briscoe.—The people in charge of these cars have to be very responsible, because these are police cars and occasionally Ministers’ cars, which have to be kept at a high pitch of efficiency. They have to be protected from interference?—If the Committee would peer into the future and pass from the year we are considering to the year 1950-51, they would see that a Committee of Inquiry into police organisation is very busily engaged in considering, amongst other things, this very question of whether there may not be too many people employed in the transport division. This committee, which is sitting at present, is going very carefully through the whole question of police strength and seeing if it would be possible, by better organisation, to reduce the existing strength. 358. Deputy Briscoe.—I am sure that Deputy Collins will agree with me that, so far as this Committee is concerned, we would consider it a very dangerous thing to economise too drastically?— These words are very grateful to my ear and I hope I shall hear them again next year. 359. Deputy Mrs. Crowley.—With reference to subhead K—Escort, and Conveyance of Children to Industrial Schools and Places of Detention-does a guard escort these children or is a woman employed for the purpose?—I think the police normally provide the escort, but in Dublin, where we have a number of probation officers, these officers would, I imagine, be employed in appropriate cases. In fact, I am sure they are provided in appropriate cases. We have no probation officers throughout the country. So then it is nearly always a guard who is employed?—I imagine so. There is specific sanction that a woman may be employed to accompany these children where it is considered necessary. Possibly in a number of cases they are accompanied by their own relatives. I imagine that is common enough. 360. Deputy Briscoe.—I notice from the Appropriations in Aid that there is a very small amount of money received for motor park attendants’ licences. Are there sufficient of these?—I could not say that definitely. It is the sort of matter for which the Commissioner of the Garda would be primarily responsible. The amount they have to pay for their licences is relatively small—2/- for a new licence and 1/- for a renewal. That suggests that there would be about 40 or 50 attendants. From the fact that the regulations are made by the Commissioner with the approval of the Circuit Court judge, I imagine that the Commissioner has a statutory right to determine how many he wants. Deputy S. Collins.—There must be more than 40 of these attendants. I think there would be about 80. What I find about these particular gentlemen is that you can never find them when you are parking your car, but you will find them when you are leaving the park. 361. Deputy Sheldon.—The figure for fees for accident reports, No. 9, has gone up considerably. Does that indicate that there has been an increase in the number of accidents?—It almost certainly does, if the figure has gone up. As these reports are called for by counsel and solicitors in nearly every case, it seems to be a fair inference that there has been a progressive increase in the number of accidents. I have not the actual figures, but I think the inference is fair enough. 362. Deputy S. Collins.—The fee charged by the Garda for these reports in the circumstances seems to be very small. Did the Department ever consider increasing it?—It was fixed at a figure which it was thought would roughly cover the cost. I think probably it just does cover the cost. With the increased number of reports and the increased expenses might it not be necessary to increase the charge?—I am afraid the profession of which you are a distinguished member might not agree. 363. Deputy Briscoe.—With regard to the Garda Síochána Reward Fund, I have no clear idea as to how this fund works. I have an idea that I was informed at the Committee on one occasion that citizens to whom the Garda had rendered very substantial services could not give an individual Garda any payment but that he could send a contribution either to the Reward Fund or the Garda Benevolent Fund. If a Garda renders a service to a citizen and the citizen wants to show appreciaiton of that service he cannot reward the Garda but he may send some gifts to the Minister as a token of his appreciaiton?—Or to the Commissioner. That is perfectly right. 364. I do not think the public are sufficiently aware of that. I understand that there is in each Garda station some kind of local fund for the local barracks. There is also the general Benevolent Fund and the Reward Fund. I do not think the public are made sufficiently aware of the existence of these funds and I think, if they were, they would be able to show their appreciation of the conduct of Gardaí on particular occasions. Chairman.—If they have the necessary feelings of generosity, they can find out all about it. 365. Deputy Briscoe.—Take a case where a Garda detects a fire in a premises that could easily become a big conflagration if it were not attended to in time. He rushes off and gets the Fire Brigade and the fire is extinguished before it reaches destructive proportions. In that particular case, I think the insurance companies and the owners of the business concerned would feel that the Gardaí had rendered a signal service to them and that they should do something about it. I do not know whether the view taken by the Head of the Department is that the Gardaí have got to do their job anyway and that they should not be shown any appreciation for doing it?—There are obvious objections to our inviting the public to do that, or even to drawing their attention to the fact that gratuities will be gratefully received, if not by the police themselves, at any rate by the fund. I think in practice it works out well enough. If an insurance company does really feel that it has been saved a substantial amount of money, I think it does contribute, though I do not know how often it happens. Deputy S. Collins.—Deputies will find an opportunity of airing their views on that particular matter in the one place in which it can be ventilated?—If the matter were mentioned in the course of a debate in the House, it would get publicity. 366. Deputy Briscoe.—There are Gardaí who often take great risks in saving the lives of other people. We ought at least put on record that we have some appreciation of the great risks which they undergo in regard to certain aspects of their duties. The witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned. |
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