|
|
|
|
MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 7ú Iúil, 1949.Thursday, 7th July, 1949.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) and Mr. J. Mooney (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN.1. Deputy Sheldon.—I move that Deputy Derrig be elected Chairman of the Committee. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—I second. Question put and agreed to. MR. DERRIG took the chair. Chairman.—I wish to thank you very much for appointing me as Chairman of this important Committee. As in the past, I am sure the Chairman will have the co-operation of all the members. I think that, since I was here before, with the assistance of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, all the Government Departments have been brought into line and consequently there is not very much left for the Committee to deal with. It is customary for the Chairman to make some reference to the powers and procedure of the Committee but all the members have been here before and are acquainted with the powers of the Committee and the procedure generally, and I do not think I need make any reference to that matter. We have met this morning to deal with a particular matter of an interim report, a question of urgency in connection with the Supplementary Estimate for Forestry. Perhaps Mr. Maher will tell us what exactly is required. VOTE 53—FORESTRY.Excess of Expenditure over Grant.2. Mr. Maher.—The position as regards Forestry is that there is an Excess Vote which is referred to in paragraph 2 and paragraph 48 of my Report on the Accounts for 1947-48. Probably it would be just as well if I read out paragraph 48 for the information of the Committee:— “The gross expenditure on this Vote has exceeded the Estimate by £2.089 19s. 6d.; in addition there is a deficiency on appropriations in aid. realised of £432 2s. The total deficit, therefore, amounts to £2,522 1s. 6d. for which an Excess Vote will be required. The excess is explained by the Accounting Officer as due to expenditure on materials for fencing. Such materials had been in short supply, but large deliveries were unexpectedly received towards the close of the financial year.” The Accounting Officer will probably be able to explain in greater detail the actual circumstances. I understand that the purchases were made through the Post Office. 3. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—What was the total Vote? Mr. Maher.—Including the Supplementary Estimate, the total Vote was £331,520. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—The excess does not seem terribly serious. 4. Mr. Maher.—The amount to be voted’ is £2,522 1s. 6d. 5. Chairman.—What is the nature of the report we are to make on this? 6. Mr. Maher.—Subject to what the Accounting Officer may have to say in answer to questions which the Committee may wish to put, the report would say:— “For this sum, the sanction of the Oireachtas will be required. The excess is due to expenditure on materials for fencing. Such materials had been in short supply but large deliveries were unexpectedly received towards the close of the financial year. The Committee sees no objection to this sum being provided by an Excess Vote.” That is what the Committee will report, subject to what the Committee may say, as a result of discussing the matter with the Accounting Officer. Mr. W. F. Nally called and examined.7. Chairman.—Perhaps Mr. Nally would like to give the Committee some brief explanation as to how the excess arose? —The explanation briefly, Sir, is this. The Forestry Division had asked the Post Office Stores Department, which is the buying agency for the supplies for the Forestry Division, to purchase supplies of rabbit fencing. That material was in very short supply during the war and for some time after the war and the Post Office had authority from the Forestry Division within the provision of the Vote to purchase all the fencing material they could possibly lay hands on. Our experience during the war years was that it was nearly impossible to get the amount of fencing material we required but late in the spring of 1948 the Post Office obtained materials in excess of what they expected to be able to get and in the last week in March there was delivered to the Forestry Division a rather big supply for which the Post Office paid there and then. The Forestry Vote was not able to meet to the extent of £2,500 the bill in that connection and that is the explanation of the excess. 8. They were acting as your agents?—Yes. 9. This was a transaction which occurred. They were acting on your instructions in the first instance. I understand you to say that they had certain materials which it was your duty to take from them. 10. Deputy Sheldon.—Could be tell us the amount of the payment which was made at the end of March?—There were two sums. One of £1,926 9s. 3d., and a second sum of £1,072 10s. which was paid on the 22nd March, 1948. The total of these two sums which were paid late’ in the financial year would in itself lead to an excess in the Vote. 11. Chairman.—Where does the Department of Finance come in? 12. Mr. Maher.—We have a representative of the Department of Finance here and I do not know whether he would like to add anything. 13. Mr. J. Mooney.—Our chief concern now is the regularising of the matter. Of course, we feel that ordinarily a thing like this should not occur. The explanation given, however, seems satisfactory. The Department were looking for something which was in short supply and availed of the chance of buying it when it came along at the last moment unexpectedly. 14. Deputy Briscoe.—I take it that the Forestry Department actually placed an order with the Post Office for securing this material and up to a certain amount? Mr. Nally.—They placed orders from 1938 to 1947 which were not fulfilled. 15. And this amount which was delivered in excess of the amount provided for by the Vote will not meet your requirements of the material yet?—Not by a long measure. 16. Deputy Sheldon.—The only other point is that savings were estimated under other sub-heads of £3,500. Were those anticipations realised?—The savings were taken into account before the need for an Excess Vote of £2,500 arose. I appreciate that but I wondered if the savings anticipated were, in fact, realised. 17. Chairman.—How are the sales at present? Are they practically nil? Deputy Sheldon wanted to know what the corresponding saving would’ be and I take it that he had a faint hope that you might save more by additional sales of timber, or expenditure which was anticipated not coming along?—We had no time to do anything like that between the 22nd March and the 31st March. It was too late in the year. 18. Deputy Sheldon.—There was a Supplementary Estimate in February and savings were anticipated then. I merely wondered if the savings were realised?— The Supplementary Estimate came rather early: before the end of the year 1947. If we had’ been allowed to wait until February or March, 1948, before going to the Dáil for the Supplementary Estimate the position would have been all right, but at the request of the Department of Finance we put the Supplementary Estimate up as soon as we could. It is a rather difficult time for the Forestry Division because between the months of November and the succeeding May their biggest expenditure takes place. 19. Deputy Briscoe.—Is provision now made in expectation of large deliveries of this fencing material?—Provision is made in relation to the amount expected. Provision was made in the 1948-49 Estimate, which was framed at that time, for the payments that led to the excess in the 1947-48 Vote. 20. Deputy Dockrell.—And this situation is not likely to arise again?—No. It is a situation we always try to avoid as far as we possibly can. 21. Chairman.—With the assistance of the Department of Finance.—With their assistance and supervision. Deputy O’Sullivan.—With the certain knowledge that they are looking on. 22. Chairman.—The draft Interim Report is as follows:— “The Committee has made progress in the matters referred to it and has agreed to the following Interim Report:— The Committee reports that during the year ended 31st March, 1948, expenditure in excess of the amount voted by the Oireachtas has been incurred under the vote hereinafter mentioned:— STATEMENT OF EXCESS. A statement of the sum required to be voted in order to make good an excess on the Grant for Forestry.
For this sum the sanction of the Oireachtas will be required. The excess is due to expenditure on materials for fencing. Such materials had been in short supply but large deliveries were unexpectedly received towards the close of the financial year. The Committee sees no objection to this sum being provided by an excess vote.” Chairman.—That is purely a factual statement. 23. Deputy Briscoe.—I should like to suggest one amendment. In addition to the words “unexpectedly received” I should like the words “previously ordered” to be inserted. It is quite clear that they had ordered these materials. Deputy Dockrell.—Otherwise they would never have taken them. 24. Chairman.—I suppose that the best place to insert the words would be after the words “financial year”. 25. Mr. Maher.—Is the Committee quite clear that the materials were not delivered to the Forestry Department? The Post Office got delivery and passed them on. 26. Deputy Briscoe.—But the Forestry Department had ordered them definitely from the Post Office. Any of us who are in business know that in other years we sometimes ordered stuff and we were very glad to get delivery. If the words I suggest are not inserted the sentence could be construed as meaning that the Forestry Department was suddenly faced with the delivery of those materials, whether they ordered them or not, and that, maybe, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs ordered them—instead of the Forestry Department. 27. Chairman.—The sentence in the Report reads:— “Such materials had been in short supply but large deliveries were unexpectedly received towards the close of the financial year.” They must have been received following upon orders. We do not know in what year the orders were placed. Deputy Briscoe.—I submit that “… large deliveries previously ordered were unexpectedly received. …” would read better. Is there any objection to that? Deputy Sheldon.—But surely nothing goes to a Government Department unless it is ordered. 28. Deputy Briscoe.—I want to make it quite clear that, although the Post Office is the contracting Department with the suppliers, they only contracted for these materials after having previously received orders to that effect from the Forestry Department. A question could afterwards be asked as to whether the Post Office ordered this stuff without having had an order from the Department of Forestry. 29. Deputy Dockrell.—I think it is clear enough. After all, large deliveries were unexpectedly received and, as Deputy Sheldon has pointed out, nothing would go to a Government Department without having previously been ordered. 30. Deputy O’Sullivan.—The actual term implies that it was ordered. 31. Deputy Sheldon.—The Post Office would not order rabbit fencing unless it was asked to do so. 32. Deputy Briscoe.—It might order something and pass it over on another Department. In any big institution it sometimes happens that one Department buys something and, before stocktaking, tries to pass it over on another Department. 33. Chairman.—Does any member of the Committee second this amendment or does Deputy Briscoe desire to pursue the matter? 34. Deputy Briscoe.—I do not wish to pursue it if the Committee thinks it is not necessary. Motion made (Deputy Sheldon): “That the Chairman’s draft Interim Report be read a Second Time.” Question put and agreed to. Motion made (Deputy Sheldon): “That the Chairman’s draft Interim Report be the Report of the Committee.” Question put and agreed to. The Committee adjourned. |
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
