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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Déardaoin, 12ú Meitheamh, 1947.Thursday, 12th June, 1947.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY COSGRAVE in the chair. Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), and Miss Máire Bhreathnach (Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.Mr. J. J. McElligott called and examined.427. Chairman.—The expenditure given here does not, I take it, represent the full cost of the maintenance of the President’s Establishment?—Of course, there would be allied services, particularly in regard to the Public Works and Buildings Vote. A sum is also provided for rates, stationery and printing, posts and telegraphs, etc., and there are sums charged on the Army Vote in respect of aides-de-camp. The President’s emoluments and allowances are charged on the Central Fund. 428. Deputy Dockrell.—This Vote refers, I take it, to the staff of the secretary to the President?—It is mainly the expenses of the secretariat that are included in this Vote. There is a staff of eight altogether, including the secretary himself. VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.428a. Deputy Sheldon.—How did it arise that the expenditure out of the grant-in-aid to the Inter-Parliamentary Union (Irish Group) was so much less than was granted?—That was all the amount that was applied for. It represented the amount of our contribution to the Union. We had estimated it in round figures but when it came to be worked out, it amounted only to £115 12s. 2d. as shown in the Appropriation Account. 429. Would it be affected by the rates of exchange?—It is to some extent. It is calculated in Swiss francs and the sterling equivalent varies according to the rates of exchange. 430. Chairman.—Are the reporters included under sub-head E?—Yes, all the salaries, wages and allowances of officers and staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas are included there. 431. Can you say if any effort has been made to secure additional reporters?— Yes, Sir. The authorised establishment of reporters, excluding the Editor of Debates and the Assistant Editor, is twelve, of whom ten operate, including one who is on extended sick leave. One reporter was recently recruited through open competition and another is being recruited in the public interest but has not yet taken up duty. Apart from the reporter on sick leave and the pending appointment, the establishment is now only one short of full strength. 432. Would the staff be sufficiently large to cater for all the work when both Houses are meeting?—I think so, Sir. Of course, there are long intervals during which the Houses do not meet and it would be a pity to have a full-time staff larger than is really necessary. If the staff is pushed during meetings of the Oireachtas, it must be remembered that for the greater part of the year the Oireachtas is not meeting. I think the Dáil itself meets about 70 days in the year. I am satisfied that the authorised number of the establishment, twelve, should be sufficient to give efficient and satisfactory service. Of course, from time to time we give additional assistance. The Oireachtas staff has authority to recruit reporters from outside if there is some temporary pressure. In that way, the difficulties at moments of exceptional pressure are relieved. VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.M. J. J. McElligott further examined.432a. Chairman.—The note to Subhead C. states that the excess expenditure was mainly due to unforeseen expenditure on the occasions of Thanksgiving Day and the installation of the President. What Thanksgiving Day was that?—That was the end of the war. These are expenses in connection with the celebration of Masses in the Pro-Cathedral on Thanksgiving Day and on the date of the Installation of the President. VOTE 5—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.M. J. J. McElligott further examined.433. Deputy Dockrell.—I observe from the notes that the Department appears to have done fairly well in the matter of exchange of officers with other Departments. The Department loaned officers whose remuneration amounted to £4,513 and they were loaned officers from other Departments whose remuneration amounted to £10,234?—That was mainly because of the exceptional pressure falling on the Department during the emergency in connection with damage to property and personal injury claims arising out of bombing incidents. The foreign exchange section of the Department had to handle quite a large mass of complicated business also. 433a. It was business of a non-recurrent nature?—It did not justify the recruitment of permanent additions to the staff so we borrowed freely from other Departments. As a result of the emergency we were very busy. 434. Chairman.—Has the work of the Foreign Exchange Department tended to increase or decrease?—I am afraid it has tended to increase, since the end of the war and since the resumption of imports on a larger scale. As the trade returns show, the value and volume of imports have been on an increasing scale and naturally there is more work in that section of the Department. Even though we have devolved more authority to the various banks, we still find the volume of the work is increasing. 434a. It is a reasonable assumption then that the staff of the section may increase?—It may increase. That is a reasonable assumption but we hope to keep it within pretty strict limits. 435. Deputy Dockrell.—With regard to the Appropriations in Aid, item No. 2 deals with the commission charged to sundry Departmental funds on purchase of securities by the Government stockbroker. How does that appear as a profit to the Department?—We perform the services for these various funds in buying and selling securities and we look after their investments. We charge the ordinary commission in order to defray the expenses of sale and purchase of these securities. It sometimes happens that, on account of the volume of the transactions being greater than expected, we realise a larger sum by way of appropriations in aid to this Vote. 436. It was not so much the amount I was interested in. How does it come about that the money your Department charged the various other Government Departments would not go to a stockbroker? Have you a salaried stockbroker?—Yes, we have a salaried stockbroker, to whom we pay a certain sum. It is to meet the expenses of the arrangements with him that we charge commission to Government accounts over which we have control and management and whose investments we handle. VOTE 8—MANAGEMENT OF GOVERNMENT STOCKS.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.437. Chairman.—What work do the banks do in connection with Government stocks?—They keep the registers of Government securities. On these registers are entered the names of the various owners and the amount of stock to their credit and the banks prepare and issue the half-yearly dividend warrants. Also, when stock is drawn for cancellation by the operation of sinking fund, the stock is cancelled by them and written off in their books. There are three banks mainly concerned—the Bank of Ireland, the National City Bank here and the National City Bank, New York, in connection with the external loan which has now reached very small dimensions. That was floated in 1927 and it was reduced by the gradual operation of the sinking fund and also by purchases on behalf of Government accounts. That was referred to by Deputy Dockrell in regard to a previous Vote. Are the banks paid according to the quantity of the work?—They are paid on a ratio per million pounds inscribed in their books. The ratio is £300 per million pounds inscribed. This rate has been in operation over the last 50 years and we think it is very economical from our point of view. 438. Deputy Dockrell.—There is no element of stockbrokers’ fees in that? It is merely for the management?—That is for the management, there is no buying or selling but there is this element of cancellation of stock which I have mentioned. VOTE 12—STATE LABORATORY.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.439. Chairman.—I notice that the total expenses of the office far exceed any fees received for analyses?—Yes. Most of the work for which the office is responsible is not paid for. Its main work lies in the service it performs for other Departments in the way of analyses of various kinds, particularly for the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health. For example, in the year up to 31st March last, the State Laboratory analysed over 27,000 samples for Government Departments, principally for the Revenue Commissioners, who sent in 16,000 samples with reference to the assessment of duty on imported beer, spirits, wines and tobacco and a number of other miscellaneous imported articles such as medicinal preparations, flavouring essences and toilet preparations, liable to contain dutiable ingredients. In the case of the Department of Agriculture, they sent us samples of fertilisers, feeding stuffs and seeds to test their composition and say if they were up to standard or specification. 440. Chairman.—All these tests are carried out free of charge?—Yes. 441. Deputy Sheldon.—Where fees are paid, that is where a commercial firm uses the Laboratory?—Or a local authority or court. 442. Deputy Dockrell.—Would there be any way by which this State Laboratory could extend its activities in commercial life, in order to offset the work it has to do for nothing and thereby help the Exchequer?—There are possibilities in that direction. On the other hand, we have to be careful not to tread on the toes of the public analysts, who are in commercial practice. 443. Do the Departments that require these analyses make any charge to the general public for them?—No. They carry them out in order to satisfy themselves as to the ingredients in the various articles tested. They do not make any special charge to the importer. The State Laboratory also carries out work for semi-State organisations or organisations sponsored by the State, such as the Industrial Alcohol Company, the Institute of Industrial Research and Standards, Bord na Móna, Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann, and so on.. 444. Deputy Sheldon.—Does the laboratory carry out any tests on wheat similar to the tests carried out in a mill in their own laboratory?—The germination tests in wheat would usually be carried out by the Department of Agriculture at their Glasnevin farm. 445. I was not thinking of that. In a mill they have a laboratory to test wheat? —For milling quality? I think they would not carry out tests like that. If they carry them out at all, it would be for the Department of Agriculture; and the main work of that Department is in regard to fertilisers and feeding-stuffs and also the examination of milk specimens, the testing of glassware used in volumetric analyses in dairies. 446. What struck me was that they might do something for the Department of Industry and Commerce where foreign wheat is imported and the subsidy to Grain Importers, Limited varies according to the analyses of the wheat. I wonder if the State Laboratory carried out any tests or if the mills’ laboratories’ tests were accepted by the Department?— As far as I know the mills’ laboratories’ tests were accepted. They would be of interest mainly in regard to the moisture content of the wheat. The Department of Industry and Commerce accepts, in that connection, the tests carried out by the various mills. VOTE 13—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.447. Deputy Sheldon.—I was wondering why there was a saving on A (2) “due to the number of candidates being below expectations” and then in B., C. and D. there are excesses due to the greater number of interview boards and increased advertising for Civil Service examinations and extra luncheons owing to the increase in the number of interview boards. How does it arise that there is apparently more work done but fewer candidates?—It arises because of the distinction between examinations held by the Civil Service Commission and interview boards which are classified as distinct from examinations. The number of candidates who attend examinations determines the number of centres which have to be used and the number of superintendents who have to be employed, and so on. That was less —as I say in the Explanation of Subhead A. (2)—than we expected. There was a greater number of interview boards, on the other hand, and members of those boards used their private cars to a greater extent than was anticipated. They were entitled to the mileage allowances which apply to the Civil Service generally and that led to an excess on the subhead. 448. Are the Appropriations in Aid fees? —They are mainly receipts from county and county borough councils in respect of the operations of the Local Appointments Commission. There are stamps also brought in in connection with this service, but they are accounted for under the heading of Fee Stamps. VOTE 14—IRISH TOURIST BOARD.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.449. Chairman.—Once the grant is paid to the Tourist Board, you do not see the expenditure further?—No, we pay the Tourist Board quarterly, on application by them through the Department of Industry and Commerce. We satisfy ourselves that the expenses of the Board are reasonable and that its administration is being conducted on reasonably economic lines. We pay over the sum asked for, and then we have no control over the internal affairs of the Board. 450. When you say you satisfy yourselves that the expenses are reasonable, does that mean that the Board supplies you with particulars of the proposed expenditure?—They supply us with particulars as to their staff, the salaries paid to the clerical staff, inspectors, and so on, the rents and rates, the cost of office supplies, furniture and fittings, and other particulars. A considerable amount of detail in regard to the affairs of the Board is set out in the annual report and accounts which is presented to the Dáil. The last annual report and accounts presented related to the year 31st March, 1946. In the concluding part there are set forth the revenue account for the year to the 31st March, 1946, the profit and loss account on development schemes to the 31st March, 1946, and then the balance sheet as at that date. We are, of course, interested in the economical administration of the Irish Tourist Board because we have made very substantial advances. Up to the 31st May we had advanced £333,877 to the Board. We are interested in securing the repayment of these advances. 451. Has any been repaid yet?—Nothing so far except a small sum of £143. For the preparation of this Estimate each year we require to be supplied with particulars as to how the Board proposes to operate during the year and we satisfy ourselves that, within the limits of the policy approved for the Board, the administration is as economical as can be expected. VOTE 15—COMMISSIONS AND SPECIAL INQUIRIES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.452. Deputy Lydon.—Can you tell us, in connection with Subheads B. (1) and B. (2), if this Commission on Irish in the Civil Service is still in being?—It is in suspension at the present time. Under arrangements carried out by the Department of Finance, this Commission, which came to a halt in the early part of the war, has not been revived. 453. Chairman.—With regard to Subheads D. (1) and D. (2), has the Commission on Youth Unemployment yet reported?—The Commission on Youth Unemployment has not yet reported, but I understand that it has practically finished the taking of evidence and that it is working on a draft report. However, I have no idea how soon that report will be ready. The Commission has now been four years on the job. It was appointed in May, 1943, so I hope the report will not be too long delayed. The Commission has held quite a large number of sittings. Up to the 7th May, 1947, it had held 97 meetings and the various committees appointed by it had held in all, 106 meetings. 454. Deputy Sheldon.—Is not a commission which costs only £412 for all that a very cheap commission?—Up to date it has cost £412 10s. 1d. That is the total up to the 31st March, 1946. Of course there are expenses in 1946-47 and in 1947-48. In 1946 they were small in amount. In 1946-47 £115 was provided. In 1947-48 the amount provided was £155. VOTE 16—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.455. Chairman.—Paragraph 15 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General refers to this Vote and is as follows:— “The operation of the Civil Service (Transferred Officers) Compensation Act, 1929, was suspended as from 26th June, 1940, by Emergency Powers (No. 30) Order, 1940 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 176 of 1940). A number of ex-civil servants who were in receipt of compensation allowances under Article 10 of the Treaty of 6th December, 1921, were, subsequent to 26th June, 1940, re-employed in situations in public Departments as defined by section 16 of the Act, and having regard to the provisions of that section their compensation allowances would in the normal course, have been abated. The Law Officers advised, however, that, as the re-employment of those ex-civil servants commenced subsequent to the suspension of the operation of the Act the abatement rule did not apply.” Can you say how many pensions were not abated?—I have not any particulars by me of the numbers that were not abated but I can send a note to the Committee of the number.* 456. Chairman.—The paragraph continues as follows:— “As stated in a note to the account, a former civil servant, who had been awarded a compensation allowance under Article 10 of the Treaty of 6th December, 1921, was re-employed in circumstances which warranted the abatement of his allowance in respect of the period April, 1940, to December, 1944, but, owing to a mistaken interpretation of the law, abatement was not, in fact, effected. The Law Officers advised that the overpayments made to him, amounting to £249 18s. 5d., are not recoverable.” Can you say the nature of the mistake in that case?—This case refers to a former tax officer who retired with Article 10 compensation. He served in the British Army from 23rd April, 1940, to the 22nd December, 1944. Thirteen shillings a day was paid from 23rd April, 1940, to 23rd September, 1942, and 17/2 a day from 24th September, 1942. A family allowance of 23/6 a week was also paid to his wife. His Article 10 compensation was suspended in 1940 by reference to his British Army pay including the allowance of 23/6 a week to his wife. The pensioner objected and the Attorney-General advised that the family allowance of 23/6 a week was not remuneration for the purpose of suspension of Article 10 compensation nor should married quarters, cash allowance in lieu of married quarters, rations, uniform, or unmarried quarters, be taken into account for suspension purposes. On receipt of this advice, suspension was withdrawn and the amount suspended was paid back. The payment of the family allowance of 23/6 a week had been conditional on a compulsory allotment of 28/- a week to his wife by the pensioner from his own Army pay. If this allotment had been counted as part of his own remuneration, part of his Article 10 compensation would have continued to be suspended as from 23rd April, 1940. However, as I have already explained in a reply to the Comptroller and Auditor-General who raised a query in the matter, the view was taken in the Paymaster-General’s office that as the payment of that family allowance was entirely conditional on the allotment of 28/- a week by this man to his wife and as the 28/- a week was paid to his wife the sum of the two should be regarded as a composite payment made not to the pensioner but to his wife. The Attorney-General’s opinion was applied on the basis of this interpretation and the pensioner was treated as being in receipt of a net payment of 9/- a day. Accordingly no abatement was made from his Article 10 compensation. This was queried by the Audit Office in July, 1946, and the question was referred to the Attorney-General for further advice. The Attorney-General advised that in his view a distinction should have been drawn and that remuneration for the purposes of suspension should have been taken as 13/- a day, that is, including the allotment of 28/- a week, but as the non-abatement amounted to a payment made under a mistake in law, the amounts over-paid were not recoverable. On that account we could take no further action. 457. I suppose you do not anticipate other cases?—No, this was a very exceptional case. 458. Deputy Sheldon.—With regard to Subhead M—Appropriations in Aid—in connection with extra remuneration, can you say if it is usual to specify more precisely the services for which extra remuneration is given?—No, Sir. As a rule, we do not specify the services which are given. 459. Is there not a rule that in the case of extra remuneration in excess of £30 not only should the amount be specified but the service should also be mentioned? —That has not been the rule in the past. The Public Accounts Committee may wish to consider it in that light. I have no doubt, of course, that the Comptroller and Auditor-General satisfies himself in all cases. Mr. Maher.—The point Deputy Sheldon has in mind, Mr. Chairman, is the reference to £795 on Page 61 for remuneration for services rendered which one pensioner received from public funds. It does not give any indication in the Note. 460. Chairman.—Can you say what the actual services rendered in that particular case were?—No, Sir, I cannot, but, no doubt, I can let the Committee know. I have no particulars of the services by me. I take it the pensioner was re-employed in some practically full-time capacity to justify such a large amount.* VOTE 17—RATES ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.461. Deputy Sheldon.—What are the Appropriations in Aid on this Vote?— They are repayments in respect of premises occupied by British Departments here and also agency services performed by our Government for various British Government Departments. The premises occupied by British Departments would be in connection with military pensions, hospitals and so on. 462. I was just wondering, in view of the fact that everywhere rates have been going up, that the expenditure in respect of rates under Subhead A. was actually less than the amount of the grant?—We had anticipated that the rates would be somewhat higher. The saving was very small, just over £2,000, on a total grant of over £162,000. 463. Most ratepayers are clamouring for a reduction in rates?—I am afraid the Vote has increased. The total expenditure in 1946-47, was £166,970, while the grant for 1947-48 amounts to £178,300. The Vote is going steadily upwards. 464. Deputy M. E. Dockrell.—With the rates?—Yes. VOTE 18—SECRET SERVICE.Mr. J. J. McElligott called.No question. VOTE 19—EXPENSES UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT AND THE JURIES ACT.Mr. J. J. McElligott called.No question. VOTE 20—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.465. Chairman.—On Subhead D., what are the cultural institutions referred to?— They include the Royal Zoological Society of Ireland for which a sum of £1,000 is down, the Royal Irish Academy, for which the sum of £4,150 is down; the Royal Irish Academy of Music, for which the sum of £300 is down, making a total of £5,450. 466. Was some particular sum decided on, or were these contributions made on the basis of the expenses incurred?—Particulars of the sums are usually set out in the Estimate for the year. It is on the basis of an examination of the accounts of these various bodies and of applications from them in respect of schemes that they may have in hand for development or further research work. In the case of the Royal Irish Academy, they do a good deal of work in connection with the publication of Celtic manuscripts. They are also interested in contributions to the Lexicography of Ancient Irish, and they have certain temporary professorships in various subjects for which we provide financial assistance, these posts being intended for distinguished foreign scholars who, for reasons arising out of the altered conditions in Europe, were unable to resume their careers in their own countries. VOTE 24—SUPPLEMENTARY AGRICULTRAL GRANTS.Mr. J. J. McElligott called.No question. VOTE 25—LAW CHARGES.Mr. J. J. McElligott called.No question. VOTE 26—UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES.Mr. J. J. McElligott called.No question. VOTE 70—DAMAGE TO PROPERTY (NEUTRALITY) COMPENSATION.Mr. J. J. McElligott called.No question. VOTE 71--PERSONAL INJURIES (CIVILIANS) COMPENSATION.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.467. Chairman.—Have all the claims for compensation in respect of personal injuries been disposed of?—Claims against the State here are being disposed of. Of course, our claims against external Governments, particularly the German Government, have not been settled, and are not likely to be settled, i.e., claims in respect of both damage to property and personal injuries. Votes 70 and 71 cover damage to property and personal injuries. The total amount claimed amounts to about £500,000, including £109,000 for personal injuries. The total amount recouped has been about £22,000. There are certain debts due to German nationals in the country which we have recovered. They are at present lying on deposit account, and we hope later to bring them into the Exchequer in respect of this expenditure. 468. Deputy Dockrell.—What is the amount?—Over £80,000. That will bring us a total of just over £100,000 against the claim of £500,000. VOTE 72—ALLEVIATION OF DISTRESS.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.469. Chairman.—There is the following note to this Vote by the Comptroller and Auditor-General—paragraph 97:— “Alleviation of Distress. “The estimate for this service, taken in July, 1945, provided £3,000,000 for the alleviation of distress in Europe due to war, and indicated that this sum was required for the provision of supplies of foodstuffs, live stock and other commodities and for expenses incidental to their purchase and shipment. A note appended to the estimate stated that where the Government of a country might prefer to make payment in respect of commodities supplied, the receipts would be brought to credit as Exchequer extra receipts but there were no receipts of this nature in the year under review. Offers of supplies were accepted by the Governments of Belgium, France, Holland and Italy, and by the International Red Cross for distribution in central, eastern, and south-eastern Europe, and the expenditure incurred in the period ended 31st March, 1946, including freight and other miscellaneous charges, totalled £1,300,621 5s. 11d., viz.:—
The disbursements comprised £1,085,473 3s. 4d. expended by the Department of Industry and Commerce on bacon, butter, dried and condensed milk, cheese, sugar, baby foods, woollen socks and gloves, knitted undergarments and knitting yarn, and £215,148 2s. 7d. expended by the Department of Agriculture on cattle and horses. Three animals purchased as part of a consignment for Holland had to be slaughtered prior to export, and the proceeds of sale, amounting to £91 18s. 2d., are brought to account as exchequer extra receipts. A contribution of £38,000 to the Irish Red Cross Society towards the expenditure by the society on the purchase and shipment of relief supplies for Europe, accounts for the remainder of the expenditure charged to the Vote. In connection with the foodstuffs allocated to Italy, approximately 124 tons of bacon, costing £27,035 and shipped in transit to Liverpool, were in danger of being lost by deterioration owing to transhipment difficulties. In the circumstances, authority was given for the sale of the bacon subject to the condition that the proceeds would be applied by the Italian Government strictly to defraying transit charges on other relief commodities provided from voted moneys. I understand that a net sum of £19,322 was realised from the sale of the bacon.” Mr. Maher.—The purpose of the paragraph is to show in detail the incidence of the expenditure for which the total was provided. 470. Chairman.—Have any of the Governments concerned yet made payments in respect of the commodities supplied? Mr. McElligott.—Yes. Payments have been made by a number of the Governments concerned. 471. I notice that Belgium and Italy did not take any cattle from the International Red Cross?—Belgium took a total of 4,978 cattle and paid for the whole lot of them. France took 1,320 and paid for 192, Holland took 8,366 and paid for 4,366. In regard to horses, Belgium took 324 and paid for that number, France took 1,202 and paid for that number, Holland took 500 and paid for 200. 472. Deputy Dockrell.—In connection with the paragraph by the Comptroller and Auditor General concerning the 124 tons of bacon have we any guarantee that perishable commodities will not be sent off in future unless it is certain that they will arrive in a proper condition? It seems to me that that might have been foreseen?— We received assurances from the Italian Government about the provision of transport and we acted on them. Of course, this particular incident taught us to be even more cautious and I think that there were no subsequent cases of this kind. 473. Did the delay take place after it had reached Italy?—The delay took place, I understand, in a British port—Birkenhead or Liverpool. 474. Chairman.—I understand it was due to difficulty in securing refrigeration cargo space?—Yes, or transport from Liverpool or Birkenhead. 475. Deputy Dockrell.—It looks as if that might have been foreseen before the stuff was sent?—The stuff was sent at the request of the Italian Legation, in January, 1946, and up to the end of March the Legation had been unable to arrange for its shipment to Italy and, apart from the difficulty of getting ships with refrigeration equipment, the Italian authorities had not got sterling for the cost of transport of other relief goods which had already been despatched to Italy and, as the bacon was in serious danger of being lost by deterioration and as we would have been always prepared to meet, if necessary, the actual cost of transit of relief supplies where a country to which these were assigned was unable to do this, we gave authority for the disposal of the bacon in the English market subject to the condition that the proceeds of the sale would be applied in defraying transit charges on other relief commodities provided by the Irish Government. 476. Chairman.—Was the sum received in fact disbursed in that way?—It was. Vouchers in respect of the receipt and of the expenditure by the Italian authorities of the proceeds are being furnished. 477. Deputy Sheldon.—I presume that in the total figure given for supplies to Italy, the £27,035 is the actual cost of the bacon?—That is what is shown in our returns of relief to Europe. 478. Chairman.—In all these cases where relief is sent to a foreign country, does the Government here deal either through the representatives here or through our representatives abroad?— Through our representatives abroad or, of course, through the International Red Cross. 479. Deputy Brady.—In the year succeeding 1945-46, was it the practice to send the goods direct to the International Red Cross in Geneva for them to distribute them from there?—Certainly it was the practice for central, eastern and south-eastern Europe to use the services of the International Red Cross but, in the case of France, Belgium, Holland and Italy, we had some direct dealings with the Governments of the countries concerned. 480. In connection with the explanation of the causes of variation between expenditure and grant, is it the position that you have now secured the packing materials for the canning of the meat?— Yes, arrangements have been made with regard to that. As members of the Committee are aware, there was a grant in 1946-47 and in 1947-48 for alleviation of distress. The grant was £3,000,000 in 1946-47 and the total issues from the grant were £1,888,000. That is an increase of £500,000 on the year which we are considering at present. The total amount voted in the current year was £1,500,000. VOTE 73—REPAYMENTS TO CONTINGENCY FUND.Mr. J. J. McElligott called.No questions. The witness withdrew. VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE REVENUE COMMISSIONERS.Mr. T. Cleary called and examined.482. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General at page iv, paragraphs 5 and 6: “Revenue Account. “A test examination of the Revenue Account has been carried out with satisfactory results. Extra Statutory Repayments of Customs and Excise Duties. Extra statutory repayments of Customs duties and of Excise duties amounting to £4,453 8s. 5d. and £918 13s. 7d., respectively, were made during the year.” Can you say how the amount is made up? The great bulk of it, Sir, is refund of duty which had been paid on imported goods which were subsequently delivered to diplomatic representatives here who get exemption from duty under reciprocal arrangements. £4,439 4s. 7d. of the £4,453 8s. 5d. was accounted for in that way, leaving a balance of £14 3s. 10d. which arose over the excision of parts of two films on which duty was paid on the full length. Duty was paid before the films were censored and subsequently 757 feet were excised. There was no statutory power to repay that duty and we got the agreement of the Department of Finance to repay £14 3s. 10d. in respect of the duty paid on those portions of the two films. One had been paid for at the full rate of 3d. per foot and the other at the half rate of 1½d. In each case refund was made but an indication was given to the companies that in future they must not pay duty before films pass the Censor. 483. Chairman.—Paragraph 7 of the note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follows:— “Remissions. “I have been furnished with a schedule of the several cases involving a loss of £50 and upwards in which claims for duty or interest receivable under the Revenue Acts were remitted during the year ended 31st March, 1946, without statutory authority, from motives of compassion or equity arising out of particular circumstances in individual cases. The reasons given for remission appear to be satisfactory. The total amount shown in the schedule is £6,709 0s. 10d., as compared with £6,917 4s. 8d. in the previous year. Of the total, £5,620 3s. 1d. has been remitted in respect of Income Tax and Sur-Tax. £2,811 1s. 11d. related to five cases in which the assessed parties died insolvent and recovery was impossible, and £2,809 1s. 2d. related to five cases in which assessments were raised but subsequent evidence revealed no real liability. The remissions also include sums in respect of Customs duty and of interest on Estate, Legacy and Succession duties amounting to £1,088 17s. 9d. The above figures do not include amounts passed as irrecoverable for various reasons and amounts written off under composition settlements.” Mr. Maher.—That is an annual paragraph, for information only. 484. Chairman.—Have you particulars of the several cases involving the loss?— Yes. You have indicated the subdivisions of the larger amount, £5,620 3s. 1d. The total also includes sums in respect of customs duty and estate and succession duties, amounting to £1,088 17s. 9d. The remission in respect of customs duty was in respect of a consignment of 108 gallons of a mixture called anti-freeze preparation which was imported in the belief that it was not liable to duty because a similar preparation had been imported five years earlier and had been found after test to be free of duty but this 1945 consignment, when subjected to test, was found to contain spirit, the strength of which was 51.1 degrees over proof. At the time those preparations were difficult to get and it would have been uneconomic to send it back and there was the consideration that if it had been made here it would have been made with duty free spirit. Therefore, in all the circumstances, we made representations to Finance that the duty should be remitted extra-statutorily, as there had been a genuine mistake. Customs duty amounting to £716 19s. 2d. was so remitted. There were a few cases of remission of interest in respect of estate duty, amounting to £371 18s. 7d. —three cases in all. They were small matters in which there was difficulty about residuary legatees and we got our duty and remitted interest on some of it. 485. Chairman.—I notice that in respect of law charges and expenses of prosecutions, expenditure exceeded the grant by £1,767 5s. 3d.?—Yes. We never know, of course, to what extent we may have to take proceedings against people, what amount of fees and travelling expenses we will have to pay. The estimate is framed in the autumn before the financial year begins, that is, at least six months before the year begins, and has to be a sort of conjecture. Usually we get near it but in recent years, as the Committee knows, as a result of smuggling both out and in and consequent increased number of prosecutions, we have exceeded our estimate of what we will have to spend and our estimate of what we will get to recoup ourselves, which is shown in the Appropriations in Aid. It is difficult to keep track of what the trend of smuggling is going to be because so many factors of the future come into it. For instance, when framing the estimate for the current year, we did not know there would be a huge increase in tobacco duties in Great Britain and we never guessed that our cars would be so greatly sought after by people on the other side of our Borders and that it would take us some time to suppress such smuggling. 486. Chairman.—New factors continually arise?—Yes, people get very intelligent and very greedy. 487. Deputy Sheldon.—The smuggler is always one step ahead?—The Deputy knows the ingenuity of these men. 488. Chairman.—Do you find that they display more ingenuity?—I do not think there is anything new, but there is a lot of persistence in their methods. 489. Deputy Sheldon.—In addition, the smuggler is the originating authority, so to speak?—Yes, he sets the pace and we have to follow. Eventually, though, he has to follow us. 490. On balance, you did rather well because you nearly doubled the proceeds of sales?—Yes. We have noticed that, although at one time we got rather nominal sums at our customs sales, during the war people paid and are still paying rather high prices at our sales. I think they want these goods for stocking up purposes. I hope they are not going into the black market. 491. Deputy Brady.—What happens to perishable goods, such as butter and bread, seized at the Border?—All perishable goods have to be sold at once. We hold the proceeds in case there is any merit in a claim. 492. How are they sold—to the local merchants?—There are generally shops or people who know things and they always make an offer. If necessary, we announce that we have a big consignment for sale and try to get a few of the local people down for the sale, but wherever there is a restaurant in a town, we always get an offer from it, a reasonable offer, too. 493. Chairman.—You have no difficulty in selling butter now?—No. 494. Deputy Brady.—The allegation in the Border towns is that butter and bread are never sold?—We receive payment and it must be for the seizures. These allegations are made now and again that some of the stuff gets into the hands of people interested in the seizures. We have investigated them very closely and have found that there is practically no foundation for them. A man would have to suppress the seizure, and, unless it is a one-man station, his colleagues will know about it and in any event the railway company will know about it. 495. Deputy Sheldon.—People have complained to me that where goods are seized they get no receipt. There is no record to show that any goods have been seized. There was a particular case of an Englishman visiting Dublin who got a present. He did not attempt to smuggle it. He showed it—I was there—but it was pointed out to him that he had no licence to export it and the article was seized. Everything went pleasantly enough but when the officer would not give him anything to show that it had been seized, he got annoyed and there was quite a row. The Revenue Commissioners allowed the article to be returned to the donor in that case, but I think that a great deal of bad feeling would be avoided if in such cases the officer concerned or the senior officer at the post issued a receipt stating that certain goods had been taken?—It would be very satisfactory but it is not really practicable at Dun Laoghaire and other busy places. The officers are so busy clearing different bags to enable travellers to get on the boat or on the plane at Collinstown that if a passenger has to get a signed receipt the next person may miss his plane or boat. I should like to see a receipt given for the goods. 496. It is out of that that the difficulty which Deputy Brady has mentioned arises?—The man in the case mentioned was satisfied when he knew the article was given back to his nominee here. 497. But he did not know at the time?— In Dundalk, with such an arrangement, the train schedule would be upset and the Great Northern people would object. They work to a very close time-table on these trains and we have to have regard for split seconds, and if there is a little delay, we get complaints. Some of the travellers have had a very good time while here and maybe different people going back from what they were coming in. 498. The impression can be left on the traveller when he gets no receipt that there is nothing to prevent the officer holding the goods?—I am sure the Committee will appreciate the point I am trying to make. If we brought in that system, we could do it at one or two stations, but at Dun Laoghaire and Collinstown, it would upset schedules. I should like to see it done, but the only possible way of doing it would be by having a separate receipt issuing department by those who wanted receipts. Otherwise, it involves the holding up of a plane or a train, and, in the case of these carrying companies, if there is delay here, that delay is cumulative and will operate more adversely on the other side. We always keep it in mind and, as I say, I certainly would like to see it done but it is not quite practicable. 499. Deputy Sheldon.—Could you tell us what proportion, if any, of the late fees for crossing the Border with a motor car the Revenue Commissioners get and what proportion the officer who attends gets?—It is a nice calculation because he is paid on the basis of overtime. The officer is entitled to a minimum amount of overtime if he is called to do only one hour’s work. He might be there for only half an hour and might get two hours’ overtime. We have now introduced a flat rate for cars of 2/-. We worked it out very closely at the time and estimated that we would not lose by the change-over, whereas the public would gain. If you remember, a man might pay 12/- to get his car cleared and another man half an hour later another 12/-, and we decided that we were getting too much out of some people, so the flat rate was introduced so that people would know how much they had to pay and we decided to make the charge as small as possible. We took the number of cars crossing and the average amount of overtime paid in a few previous years and we found that 2/-per car would about pay us. 500. Deputy Sheldon.—The system in operation now is better than it was for some years, the system under which one can cross the Border between 9 p.m. and midnight without previous request on payment of the fee. VOTE 7—OLD AGE PENSIONS.Mr. T. Cleary further examined.501. Deputy Sheldon.—Is recovery under subsection (2) of Section 9 of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, waived in all cases where there has been no fraud or concealment?—Yes. If a person obtains his pension bona fide he is not suppressing anything when making his claim. The witness withdrew. |
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