Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1945 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1942 - 1943

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 25ú Eanar, 1945.

Thursday, 25th January, 1945.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

Mr. J. Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), Mr. C. S. Almond, Mr. L. M. Fitzgerald and Mr. G. P. S. Hogan (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.

Secretary.—The Chairman has sent a message that, owing to weather conditions, he will be unable to attend to-day.

Deputy Briscoe.—I propose that Deputy Cosgrave take the Chair for this meeting.

Mícheál O Liodáin.—Cuidighim leis sin.

Deputy Cosgrave took the Chair.

Chairman.—I must ask the indulgence of the members as a neophyte in this position.

VOTE 55—INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson called and examined.

748. Chairman.—Paragraph 43 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:

“Subhead I.—New York World Fair, 1939 and 1940.

“The estimate provided for the amount required to defray the balance of the cost of participation in the Fair. I referred in previous reports to payments made on behalf of a London firm of display experts. These payments remain charged to a suspense account in the year under review, but a supplementary estimate has since been passed to enable the expenditure to be charged against the vote. The total expenditure charged to the vote to 31st March, 1943, in connection with this Fair amounted to £71,588 7s. 9d., and the receipts credited to that date amounted to £4,827 14s. 6d.”

Mr. Ferguson.—This matter has been before the Committee on a number of occasions and very full explanations have been given as to how the situation arose. This paragraph is, I think, merely intended to record the fact that a supplementary estimate has now been passed to deal with the balance of this account. If I am not mistaken, the records of the Committee show explanations of the matter over three years.

749. Chairman.—I do not think that anything further arises in regard to that matter now. Paragraph 44 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General deals with minerals development and states:

“The expenditure under Subhead L (1) relates to advances made to Comhlucht Gual-Láthrach Shliabh Árdachadh, Teoranta, under Section 9 of the Slievardagh Coalfield Development Act, 1941. The total amount advanced under this section up to 31st March, 1943, is £54,581. Pursuant to Sections 10 (2) and 11 (3) of the Act, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, agreed to the postponement to 1st January, 1944, of the payment of interest on advances and of the repayment of instalments of advances which fell due on 1st January, 1943. In accordance with Sections 10 (3) and 11 (4), the company became liable for interest on the deferred payments and the Minister for Finance has directed that this interest also be paid on 1st January, 1944. The charge to Subhead L.2. is in respect of a non-repayable grant under Section 12 (3) of the Slievardagh Coalfield Development Act, 1941, to cover the expenses incurred by the company in carrying out prospecting operations in the Leinster coalfield. Under the terms of the Estimate, the expenditure incurred by the company under this head is not subject to audit, in detail, by me.

Mr. Maher.—The rate of interest is 5 per cent., payable half-yearly, and the half-yearly instalments cover a period of 20 years.

Mr. Ferguson.—The company has not reached the stage of full development and that was the explanation of the request that payment of interest should be postponed.

750. Chairman.—Has any of the interest been paid?—I think that it was necessary to postpone payment again. The company has not yet reached the stage when it could make these payments.

751. Are we to take it that the company can hardly be described as a success, so far?—That is not the word which I would like to use either negatively or positively. It is a success in the sense that coal which is badly wanted is coming out of that-coalfield. The question whether or not it will finally develop into a profitable undertaking depends on a number of factors—the price of coal over the next ten years, the demand for Irish coal and other conditions which it is practically impossible to forecast.

752. Has a certain amount of coal been mined here?—Yes. Unfortunately, I did not take a note of the amount before coming here but I should say, subject to correction, that production is under 20,000 tons a year. It had to be developed in rather an expensive way in the sense that men who were not colliers had to be employed. That raises difficulties in the case of every coal mine. The great drawback in the past five years has been the absence of skilled men. This company had to take in new men and train them. That meant low production. As the company gets over that difficulty, it should be in a much more economic position.

753. Deputy Briscoe.—I notice from the note of the Comptroller and Auditor General that the Minister for Industry and Commerce agreed to a postponement of the payment of interest and instalments until January, 1944, and that the Minister for Finance directed that the payment of interest be made by January, 1944. The wording of the paragraph gives me the impression that the two Ministers have different views on the matter?—So far as I know, that is not the position. This was done to ease the position at a particular moment. It might be that the two Ministers would have different views as to whether the company should, or should not, make these payments on a particular date, but, so far as I know, there is no acute difference between them. The need for getting ahead with production is so vital that the question may arise whether this should not be written off as an emergency expense against coal produced in expensive ways for immediate needs. I am not aware, however, that there is any difference between the Ministers on the matter.

754. I am not urging that there should be any interference with production because these people are not in a position to pay instalments and interest. I notice, however, that one Minister agreed to postponements of the payments and that the other Minister directed that the interest should be paid on a particular date. Is there not a difference there?—I think the position really is that the Minister for Finance has agreed that it should be postponed again.

Chairman.—I shall read the relevant portion of the paragraph again:

“In accordance with Sections 10 (3) and 11 (4), the company became liable for interest on the deferred payments and the Minister for Finance has directed that this interest also should be paid on the 1st January, 1944.”

Deputy Briscoe.—But the Minister for Finance has directed that the interest should be paid on the 1st January, 1944.

Chairman.—Subsection (3) of the Act provides:

“If the company fails (otherwise than by virtue of a waiver under the next preceding subsection of this section) to pay any half-yearly payment of interest payable by the company under this section, the company shall (whether such failure was or was not due to a postponement under the said next preceding subsection) pay to the Minister interest at the rate appointed by the Minister for Finance on such half-yearly payment of interest until the sum is actually paid.”

Deputy Briscoe.—I see the difference now.

755. Deputy Cogan.—Might I ask how is the rate of interest fixed? Is it fixed by the Act or by some other arrangement?

Mr. Maher.—At the rate appointed by the Minister.

Deputy Cogan.—It appears to be rather high.

756. Deputy Briscoe.—Can we be told what is the amount of interest now due, apart from the capital advances?

Mr. Ferguson.—I can supply that figure afterwards*.

757. Deputy Briscoe.—Could we have the amount up to the accounting period that we are now discussing?—I can give the figure up to the end of this accounting period*.

758. Chairman.—If there is no other question with regard to this company, we can take the remaining portion of paragraph 44:

“Advances to Comhlucht Lorgtha agus Forbartha Mianraí, Teoranta, under Section 10 of the Minerals Exploration and Development Company Act, 1941, are charged to subhead L. 3. The total amount advanced to the company under this section up to 31st March, 1943, is £48,198 1s. 6d. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, in exercise of the powers conferred by Section 11 (2) and 12 (3) of the Act, has agreed to the postponement to 1st January, 1944, of the payment of interest on advances and of the repayment of instalments of advances which fell due on 1st January, 1943. In accordance with Section 11 (3) and 12 (4) of the Act, the company became liable for interest on the postponed payments and the Minister for Finance has directed that this interest should also be paid on 1st January, 1944.

The charge to subhead L. 4. is in respect of a non-repayable grant under Section 13 (3) of the Minerals Exploration and Development Company Act, 1941, to cover the expenses incurred by the company in carrying out prospecting operations in certain areas in County Wicklow. Under the terms of the estimate the expenditure so incurred by the company is not subject to audit, in detail, by me.”

Mr. Ferguson.—The position as regards this company is much the same as that of the coal company in that it had not reached the stage of full development.

759. Deputy Briscoe.—At any rate, you are producing something that was urgently required during the emergency? —We are producing pyrites in Wicklow and Avoca, and phosphates in Clare. But, technically and financially, the position in regard to this company is exactly the same as that of the coal company.

760. Chairman.—Is this company, also under emergency conditions, a success?— I wish to give the Committee the fullest information, but it is rather hard when the question is put that way. The difficulty, as you probably know, is that the pyrites in Avoca are not as rich as Spanish pyrites. There are difficulties about burning, and very elaborate experiments have had to be carried out. Certain proportions of them are definitely good and others not so good. It is a matter of working to see how they can be combined and used successfully. The area has supplied a certain quantity of pyrites. They have been very useful, and have been an insurance against complete failure to import pyrites. The experiments in the case of the Avoca pyrites, carried out by the manufacturers of fertilisers under the control of the Emergency Research Bureau, have been useful. They have tested out, in practical working, the value of this, that and the other varieties. Just now, we are getting a report from a mineral expert on the other side in regard to these deposits. I should say the report will be available in the course of the next few weeks. It will deal with the future possibilities of the area from the point of view of future development. We hope to be able to find out, from using these pyrites under emergency working conditions, what are the prospects of their later commercial development.

761. Has this expert examined the Clare phosphates as well?—No. He was only in the Avoca area.

762. Can you say whether there was a difference of opinion as between the expert opinion, from the Departmental point of view concerning the Clare phosphates, and that of the private prospectors?—Do you mean as to the value of the Clare phosphates?

763. Yes?—I do not know what opinion you have in mind, but we have been very fully informed as to the exact value of the Clare phosphates. We have had, I think, two commissions and a number of valuable reports dealing with them. It has to be said that the Clare phosphates are not as rich as North African phosphates which are, I think, the richest in the world, and are even better than the Florida phosphates which we have been glad to get on occasion. The point, at any rate, is that Clare phosphates have been useful, even though the phosphoric acid was not a high percentage. Still they have been, again, an insurance, and have had a definite value.

764. Deputy Briscoe.—Has there been any attempt made to develop the production of sulphuric acid in order that, as regards the phosphates when they become readily soluble and more useful, the question of their content will not arise to the same extent as it does now?—The Deputy is now going into a rather technical matter. The position as I, a non-technician, understand it is this, that there is the idea in certain quarters that another method of handing our phosphates would be more successful than the method that it normally used for the richer North African phosphates. There has been a certain amount of investigation into that, and it is a matter that will have to be gone into more fully. That, as you know, is a matter for the superphosphate manufacturers, Messrs. Goulding and their allied firms. They have been carrying out certain experiments, and, possibly, at some future date there may be changes in method. That, of course, would involve changes in plant which could not possibly be carried out at the present time.

765. The Department, apparently, appear to have knowledge of the fact that our native phosphates could probably be used to better advantage if there was another method employed for producing them?—That is possible, but it has not been proven.

766. It is under your notice?—Yes. With regard to the second paragraph dealing with the prospecting operations carried out, I should like to say that prospecting operations were carried out in other parts of the country as well as in County Wicklow.

767. Has this prospecting been in the Avoca area?—Mainly in the Avoca area. There was some also in the Glendalough area for lead.

768. What methods of prospecting are they carrying out?—It is being carried in two ways, one by the head of our geological survey who is an experienced geological mining expert, and also by experts employed by the company. The work is under their guidance. As I understand it, the prospecting is being done in the ordinary way by borings and surface examinations. There are a great many old workings. Borings, generally, are being carried out, and also I understand trenching.

769. Can you say whether any attempt is being made to bring the geological survey maps up to date?—Yes. The staff is being strengthened so as to have this work more thoroughly done. A draughtsman was appointed recently to help to bring the maps up to date.

770. Will these be available to the public?—Yes, all the information in the Geological Survey Office will be available.

771. Deputy Cogan.—I notice that only one-third of the amount provided under the subhead is being spent. Are you continuing the work of investigation?—There has been no slackening in the operations of the company. The very fact that we are getting an expert to report and advise as to what is the best step to take is the best indication of that.

772. Chairman.—Is the company exploring or mining for minerals other than pyrites?—The immediate object in that area is pyrites, but there are other minerals which are covered by the prospecting operations, such as lead, copper and zinc. The methods to be adopted later will depend on what the expert advises. His report may mean the working of other minerals. There are lead, copper and sulphur.

773. Deputy Briscoe.—Has there been any reference to tin?—Not in this area.

774. You are leaving gold out?—We have not thought recently of gold.

775. Chairman.—We can now take paragraph 45:

“Extra Receipts Payable to Exchequer.

“Fees under the Sugar (Control of Import) Act, 1936.

“45. As stated in paragraph 68 of my report on the accounts for the year 1938-39, these fees were paid by Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann, Teoranta, in respect of licences issued to it by the Department of Industry and Commerce to import sugar under the provisions of the above Act. A provisional fee of 1d. per cwt. was charged on the issue of a licence and the amounts collected were credited to a suspense account pending approval by the Minister for Finance, under Section 7 (4) of the Act, of the amount of the fee to be imposed. In June, 1942, the Minister for Finance conveyed his sanction for fixing the fee at the provisional rate already charged and directed that the receipts therefrom be accounted for as exchequer extra receipts. The sum of £13,798 3d. 4d., which represents the amount of fees levied in respect of sugar imported in the period 1st May, 1938, to 30th April, 1941, was, accordingly transferred to the Exchequer from the suspense account.”

Have you any comment to make on this, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—The amount was credited to the Suspense Account pending the final assessment of the amount of the fees to be charged after the consideration of the audited accounts.

Mr. Ferguson.—The Committee will understand that the object of this is that the sugar company will make no profit out of importing and selling sugar. That is how the money comes to the Exchequer. In other words, the difference between the amount that the company spends in importing sugar and the amount they get from the public for selling that sugar goes into the Exchequer.

776. Deputy Briscoe.—Has this account been completed up to date?—It is a continuing account which is adjusted each year.

777. Chairman.—We can now take the subheads. Can you say in respect of subhead K. how so small an expenditure was incurred?—I should explain that the duties of the Prices Commission are carried out as an emergency measure by the same officers under the Ministry of Supplies. Their salaries are carried on their Vote. Our Vote simply contains the allowances given to two officers, over and above their salaries, for the special duties connected with their particular work.

778. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—If I might refer to Subhead G. again, fees to Vocational Education Committees, how many vocational committees would be covered? The amount seems very small? —Probably only Cork and Dublin. I would have to have notice, and let you know afterwards. The sum is small. I will send a note later to the Committee about that*.

779. Deputy Briscoe.—In regard to those industrial research items, I raised on another occasion here—I do not know whether it was on some other Vote—the question of the possibility of this industrial research council being made more readily available to the general industrial community by their being able to charge fees to the community for research on their behalf?—They have always been able to do that. If a firm asks them to do a particular piece of research, on the basis that they will pay the costs, that is done.

780. There is no reference to it in the Accounts?—During the emergency, the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau has done a lot of the work normally done by the Industrial Research Council.

781. Would there be a possibility of making it more generally known to the industrial community that those two departments are there and available, and that on payment of the appropriate charges they would be able to do research work for them?—That is possible. Bodies like, say, the Federation of Irish Manufacturers and similar bodies do know, but it is possible that all their members do not know.

782. The whole of the industrial community are not members of the Federation of Irish Manufacturers. The view I hold on this is that both those research organisations should become a permanent feature of the Department’s activities, and, if it were generally known, the community might support them very substantially?—As it is possible that certain changes in the organisation of the Industrial Research Council may be before the Dáil at some point in the future, all that could very well be raised then. We are at the moment engaged in considering what form the Industrial Research Council should take after the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau is wound up— a more permanent form perhaps than it has had up to now. The matter could very well come up then.

783. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—Could we have an amplification of Subheads M. 5 and M. 6, as to the general application of the grants?—Subhead M. 5, as you see, is merely a token. That is explained by the fact that practically all that work is done by the Emergency Scientific Research Bureau at the moment. There is a pause during the emergency. M. 6 is a regular feature, grants in aid to students for training in scientific research, and they are awarded in accordance with certain regulations we have made in agreement with the Minister for Finance. That was an old arrangement formerly carried out by the Department of Education, and finally taken over by us and brought under the advisory control of the Industrial Research Council so as to have this work which the students may do directed more to practical questions.

784. How are the students selected?— Recommendations are made by the heads of the Universities. Lists of students are recommended for certain types of research work. That is examined and reported on by the Industrial Research Council, as to the utility of the student’s work and so on, and we, in conjunction with the Minister for Finance, take the final decision on their advice.

785. Deputy Briscoe.—How do you estimate the figure? Is that the limit within which the universities have to work? If, at any particular moment, they have a larger number of candidates, do they have to eliminate some of them in order to keep within that figure?—In any particular year that amount can be increased. It would be under a Supplementary Vote, I presume, but it could be done.

786. The fact that the figure is £850 would not prevent you from accommodating them?—If we are satisfied, on the reports we have from the universities and the Industrial Research Council, more money could be provided, subject to the sanction of the Minister for Finance.

787. It appears to me that what might happen is that, when the universities are making those applications, they would say: “We will have to narrow down the number of applications in order to come within that figure”?

Mr. Almond.—I might explain that the provision in the Estimate is not made until all the recommendations have been received from the Council.

VOTE 56—TRANSPORT AND METEOROLOGICAL SERVICES.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson further examined.

788. Chairman.—There is a note (Paragraph 46) by the Comptroller and Auditor General on Subhead A.A.—Provision of Canal Barges:—

“Under a scheme for the provision of additional horse-drawn wooden canal barges for the purpose of increasing canal transport facilities, fourteen barges were constructed and delivered by the contractors during the year. The expenditure of £14,056 15s. 0d. under the subhead is made up of the contract price of the completed barges together with minor advertising expenses. Under an agreement made between the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Grand Canal Company, the barges were taken over by the company, which acts as agent for the Minister in letting them for hire on a fixed scale of charges. The hireage charges are paid over to the Department and credited to Exchequer Extra Receipts, the amount received in the year under review being £42. I am informed by the Accounting Officer that in accordance with the terms of the agreement with the Minister the records of the company are examined by an officer of the Department with a view to verifying the amounts received for hirage.”

Mr. Ferguson.—I presume you are aware of the circumstances in which this was done. It was an insurance against shortage of transport, and in order to use water transport to the maximum it was found necessary to have those barges built. So far, there has been an annual revenue. In 1942-43, the total sum was £959 odd, and for 1943-44 it was £917 odd. So far, all the barges have been used, and have proved very useful.

789. Chairman.—Can you say whether, under the agreement, the Department or the Grand Canal Company would own those barges at the end of the emergency? —So far, I think all the barges have been hired only, and we will own them.

790. Deputy Briscoe.—I suppose the Grand Canal Company do all this service for nothing?—Well, I do not expect that companies usually do things for nothing.

791. Can you tell us what is the arrangement with the company?

Chairman.—I think Mr. Maher can tell us about that.

Mr. Maher.—Under the agreement, I think the Grand Canal Company are not at any loss for the services they render.

Mr. Ferguson.—I think I should say that the company has been very helpful in the whole matter. I think they have done something more than make it a profitable affair for themselves. There was no possibility of getting more barges at that time, and wooden barges are not regarded by the company or by anybody else as a business proposition nowadays. They should be steel barges, but we had not the material, and it was better to proceed in that way.

792. Deputy O’Sullivan.—Where did you get the barges?—They were built here—in Dublin, Arklow, and two or three at Carlow.

793. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor General informs me that, under the agreement, the company, as agent for the Minister, charges a hireage sum of £1 per week, provided that in any week in which any goods other than stone, limestone, turf, briquettes, etc., are carried in the barges the hireage charge payable to the company shall be £2 for that week.

“Subhead B.5.—Shannon Airport, Foynes-Limerick Omnibus Service.

“47. The expenditure of £757 1s. 1d. charged to this subhead relates to payments to the Great Southern Railways Company in respect of the operation as from mid-November, 1942, of an omnibus service between Foynes and Limerick for the purpose of providing travelling facilities for the staff engaged at the air-port. The receipts from fares paid by passengers using the services are credited to appropriations in aid and amounted to £451 19s. 11d.”

794. Chairman.—Have you any comment to make, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—It will be noticed that it relates only to about three or four months of this Financial Year, but we are informed that the bus facilities have now been extended to employees of operating companies and some outsiders.

Mr. Ferguson.—Yes, some of the public. The result is that the loss has been turned into a profit.

795. Deputy Briscoe.—It accrues to your Department?—It does.

796. And will continue to do so?—I do not know.

797. While it was not profitable the Railway Company did not provide the service. Now that it becomes profitable they will say: “We will run them now and make profits for ourselves”?—It is not a question of money at all. There is no proper housing accommodation. The staff had to be brought there and they had to be transported. The public were only allowed to travel. It is not a question of money. The main thing was to have our staff carried.

798. You are making money now?—At the moment there is a profit.

799. Chairman.—There are no housing facilities at all and the nearest place is Limerick?—It is very difficult. A new hostel is being provided, but that will take some time.

“Subhead C.—Subsidy in respect of Air Services.

“48. The charge to this subhead represents payment to Aer Rianta, Teoranta, under the Subsidy (Aer Rianta, Teoranta) Order, 1942 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 244 of 1942), to cover the estimated losses by the company and the subsidiary company (Aer Lingus Teoranta) in the operation of an air service from Collinstown Airport. The actual loss as determined by the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce amounted to £29,410 1s. 2d. and the sum of £3,589 18s. 10d., being the excess of the amount estimated over the actual loss, has been repaid and will be accounted for as an exchequer extra receipt in the year 1943-44”

800. Mr. Maher.—The subsidy paid in that year, 1942-43, shows a reduction as compared with the previous year.

801. Deputy Briscoe.—There is no doubt that when normal conditions come about that subsidy will not be utilised in full. The hopes are that there will be a further development of air services?

Mr. Ferguson.—That is the object— to wipe out that subsidy. It is difficult to predict when that will be done.

802. In the future, from the point of view of development, there is a hope of its being almost self-supporting?—It is very difficult to make any statement about that. When I say that, I am not making a reservation on the negative side, but on both sides. It is practically impossible to answer.

“Extra receipts payable to Exchequer.

“49. The total receipts during the year from landing and accommodation fees, etc., at the Shannon Airport amounted to £6,148 8s. 4d., out of which payments amounting to £366 16s. 6d. were made to Foynes Harbour Commissioners in respect of certain facilities accorded at Foynes, leaving the net figure for receipts £5,781 11s. 10d. as shown in the account.

The sum of £2,500 received during the year from the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Company was in repayment of an advance of that amount, free of interest, made to the company from this vote in March, 1940, on the conditions mentioned in paragraph 59 of my report on the accounts for the year 1939-40.”

803. Mr. Maher.—That paragraph is for information only.

“Stores, Equipment, Etc.

“50. Store accounts relating to stores and equipment used at the Shannon Airport have not yet been made available to me. I am informed that although inventories of such stores and equipment are maintained it has not yet been found possible to inaugurate a complete store-accounting system but that it is hoped to submit accounts from 1st April, 1942, within a reasonable period.”

804. Mr. Maher.—We were informed that the delay was due to the appointment of a storekeeper at Foynes and that that has been regularised.

Mr. Ferguson.—That is so.

805. Chairman.—What was the difficulty about appointing him?—It was a question of getting sanction to appoint a storekeeper and then advertising and getting a suitable man. Over and above all that was the general difficulty of making final decisions at a place like Foynes, involving more expense.

“Permanent records of lands, buildings, etc., and rentals of property.

“51. Since the date of my last report I have been furnished with a register of lands and buildings held by the Minister in connection with civil airports. A rental which has been compiled in respect of lettings of the properties has also been made available to me. The receipts for lettings of lands surplus to requirements at the airports amounted during the year to £1,473 11s. 2d., and are accounted for as appropriations in aid.”

806. Mr. Maher.—A test examination has been carried out of the register of the lands and buildings and of the rentals compiled in respect of lettings of property, both with satisfactory results.

807. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—As to Subhead B. 5, it is interesting to find that the Department did not anticipate that a bus conductor was needed. Are we to assume that the conductor is paid only £1 per week?—No, that is a wrong deduction.

808. Deputy Briscoe.—That sum is only for a short period?

Mr. Ferguson.—It was intended originally when there were no public passengers to have a driver only.

Mr. Maher.—The arrangements for running buses took effect from 18th November, 1942, the Great Southern Railways being paid £50 per week for operating the service plus £6 per week for a conductor as from 28th December, 1942.

Chairman.—Apparently he is a highly-paid conductor.

809. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—As to Subhead C.—Subsidy in respect of Air Services, £33,000—is that a standard figure? —No, that refers to Collinstown.

810. Deputy Briscoe.—As to Subhead D.—Management of Dublin airport—that is something I do not understand. The management of the Dublin airport is distinct from the subsidy to the air service itself. I understand that the position is that the airport sublets to the Air Company on an agreement to run services, the rights in the buildings, etc. I do not understand how they are related or separated?—It is not so much that they are sublet as that they are acting as our agents. The company manage the airport, whatever the technical position is. It is just a separate payment, a matter of accounting, a payment of the amount of the loss incurred by the company in managing the airport for the Department. It is a separate heading. It has to be added to the losses, if that is the point you are making.

811. That means that the Department actually is the owner of the equipment, plant and buildings?—Yes, definitely. It has not been handed over to the company, nor is it let to them. This is a payment to the company for its losses in maintaining and managing the airport.

812. Do they pay from that to the Board of Works the expenses for repairs, etc., or is that an extra charge?

Mr. Almond.—Ordinary maintenance is part of the management expenses.

Mr. Ferguson.—Ordinary maintenance would come under that loss.

813. Deputy Briscoe.—Some time ago very substantial expenditure was made on the hangars in providing concrete flooring to carry heavy planes, etc. Under what heading would that be charged?—It might be expansion rather than maintenance. That would come under the Board of Works, I imagine. It is a question of the difference between ordinary maintenance and extension, or addition, or capital expenditure.

814. Ordinary maintenance comes under this head?—Yes.

815. Chairman.—If the Deputy looks at the Estimate, page 270, it is explained under Subheads C. and D.

816. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—As to E. 1, it is stated that the saving was due to the post of Deputy Director remaining unfilled. Has the post been filled since?— It has not yet been filled.

817. What is the cause of the delay in filling it?—It is a question as to whether there is need for him at present. There is a post there when conditions are normal. None of these operations are normal at present, either the meteorological services or any of the others. It is a question of when it is decided that there is need for him, and the appointment will then be made.

818. Deputy Briscoe.—As to Subhead E.4.—Telegrams and Telephones—a lot of this expenditure is for service outside of the State. We report to other companies sending in planes, about the weather, winds, etc. Is that a reciprocal arrangement under which we get their reports and we give ours?—Speaking from memory, I think it is reciprocal.

819. You are satisfied that we have not to do more than the others?—I do not think so.

820. There is a company on the other side, and our planes are back and forward. They both require information. The arrangement would also cover the fact that when a plane comes in we send a plane out?—That is roughly what it is —again subject to the emergency conditions.

821. As to the meteorological services in connection with planes coming to Foynes where we have not got a reciprocal arrangement?—That is covered by airport fees. The companies using it pay an inclusive fee for airport services.

822. Part of that would be recovered? —Yes.

823. Deputy O’Sullivan.—Under Appropriations in Aid there is an item: “Income from Rosse Fund, £12”. What is that?—We sent the Committee last year full details of this Rosse Fund. At the moment I cannot recollect them. You may have it here.

Chairman.—For the information of the Committee I shall read the report which was sent in last year by Mr. Ferguson. (Chairman reads Appendix VIII to the Report of the Committee dated 24th February, 1944.)

VOTE 57—RAILWAY TRIBUNAL.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson called.

No questions.

VOTE 58—MARINE SERVICE.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson further examined.

824. Chairman.—On this Vote, there is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General—paragraph 52, page xxi:—

“Reference was made in previous reports to expenditure charged to this Vote in the years 1940-41 and 1941-42 in connection with compensation to crews of ships registered in Éire or to their dependents in respect of loss, injury or detention arising out of the war, and it was stated that the Department of Finance had approved of the payments made during these years pending the enactment of legislation. The necessary statutory authority was obtained by Emergency Powers (No. 263) Order, 1943 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 86 of 1943), made on 19th March, 1943, which, inter alia, validated the payments made before that date.”

Mr. Maher.—Nothing arises on that, Mr. Chairman. That is for information only. The matter has been regularised by the passage of the Emergency Powers Order.

825. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—In regard to Subhead C., there is a note to the effect that no purchase of uniforms was made and no medals for gallantry at sea were awarded. Is it that the custom of awarding medals was suspended, or has it been abolished?

Mr. Ferguson.—No; it has not been abolished. As far as I know, there were no awards in that particular year, but no decision has been taken to stop the custom.

826. Chairman.—Who awards the medals?—The Minister, of course, formally, on the reports that are made available to him by the marine experts in the Department.

827. Deputy Briscoe.—In regard to Subhead F., does the money that accrues to the receiver of wrecks come into this Vote as an appropriation in aid?

Mr. Almond (Department of Finance).— Item 7.

828. —Deputy Briscoe.—That refers to wrecks, but the receiver of wrecks also receives for sale flotsam and jetsam.

Mr. Ferguson.—That all goes into this account. Whatever revenue he gets as receiver of wreck comes into this.

829. Deputy Briscoe.—It specifies only wrecks. It does not specify flotsam and jetsam?—All the income he gets goes into that.

830. Chairman.—I presume it includes everything?—The word “wreck” there is generic; it is used covering everything he gets from that source.

831. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—On Subhead L.—Appropriations in Aid—what is the relationship obtaining as between yourselves and the Irish Lights? Generally speaking, is there a working arrangement or have you any supervision over any section of the Irish Lights?—We have nothing at all departmentally to do with the Irish Lights at the moment.

832. Deputy Briscoe.—I suppose the present arrangement suits us?—The Minister has no function in relation to it.

VOTE 59—UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE AND UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson further examined.

833. Chairman.—On this Vote, in regard to Subhead J.—Unemployment Assistance—there is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General—paragraph 53, page xxi:—

“A supplementary estimate was introduced during the year to provide for the additional expenditure incurred under this subhead in connection with the increase in the rates of unemployment assistance payable in accordance with Emergency Powers (No. 236) Order, 1942 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 457 of 1942). The effect of this Order was to grant increased rates of assistance to persons with dependents resident in areas in which the food voucher scheme is not in operation.”

Mr. Maher.—That is for information only, Mr. Chairman. I understand the increased rates were paid as from 11th November, 1942.

834. —Chairman.—The paragraph continues:—

“As noted in the account, payments of unemployment assistance amounting to £44 17s. 4d., which were included in the accounts of the years 1938-39 and 1939-40 but subsequently found to be irregular and irrecoverable, have been written off with Department of Finance sanction. Cash recoveries of overpayments of unemployment assistance, credited to appropriations in aid, amounted to £275 0s. 10d. In addition, further recoveries totalling £530 18s. 5d. in respect of overpayments included in the accounts of previous years have been identified since the close of the last account as having been made by deduction from unemployment assistance to which applicants subsequently became entitled.”

Mr. Maher.—That is for information only.

835. Chairman.—There is a further note in regard to Subhead J.J.—Special Register of Agricultural and Turf Workers— paragraph 54:—

“The charge to this subhead represents the amount paid during the year to men enrolled in the special register of agricultural and turf workers established in accordance with the Emergency Powers (No. 243) Order, 1942 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 503 of 1942), which came into operation on 6th January, 1943. The Order applies, with certain exceptions, to men between twenty-two and sixty years of age resident in rural areas who satisfy the Minister for Industry and Commerce that they are suitable for, and will accept while enrolled, employment in agriculture or the turf industry anywhere in the State and that they had been previously engaged for the requisite period in work of that nature.

A person enrolled in the register is paid tenpence for any day in respect of which unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance is payable, or in the case of a person not receiving unemployment benefit or assistance for any day on which it is determined under the provisions of the Order that he is continuously unemployed.”

Mr. Maher.—The big saving between the estimate of £48,000 and the expenditure of £4,488, I understand, is due to the fact that comparatively few of the number of persons eligible for enrolment in the special register took advantage of it.

836. Chairman.—In regard to Subhead L., there is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General:

“Subhead L.—Appropriations-in-Aid. Receipts from County Borough and Urban Area Councils under Section 26 of the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1933, as amended by the Unemployment Assistance (Amendment) Acts, 1938 and 1940.

“55. Under Section 26 of the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1933, the council of each urban area is required to pay annually to the Minister for Industry and Commerce an amount calculated by reference to the rateable value of the urban area concerned. The term ‘rateable value’ as defined in the Act was the subject of questions raised by a number of local authorities who claimed that they were not liable to contribute in respect of certain hereditaments in their areas, and to remove doubts as to the true construction and meaning of this section, the Unemployment Assistance (Amendment) Act, 1940, was passed.

Section 2 of the Act of 1940 declared that the term ‘rateable value’ where it occurs in Section 26 of the Act of 1933 means and always meant in relation to any urban area the aggregate amount of the valuations under the Valuation Acts of all hereditaments situate in that urban area in respect of which any rate is payable or, in the case of an unoccupied hereditament, would be payable if the hereditament were occupied, subject to the provision that an amount equal to 98 per cent. of such ‘rateable value’ shall apply in relation to any county borough or the Borough of Dun Laoghaire.

Section 5 (1) of the Act of 1940 provides that the Commissioner of Valuation shall, whenever so requested by the Minister, furnish to the Minister a certificate stating, with due regard to the provisions of the Act, the rateable value for the purposes of Section 26 of the Principal Act of 1933, and Section 5 (2) provides that a certificate so furnished by the Commissioner of Valuation shall be conclusive evidence for the purposes of the Principal Act and of the Act of 1940 of the rateable value of the urban area to which such certificate relates.

Certificates were furnished by the Commissioner of Valuation, in accordance with the requirements of Section 5 (1) of the Act, but, again, some of the items included in them were disputed by local authorities who contended (1) that the valuation of small dwellings on which no rates are payable should have been excluded, and (2) that where the rateable value of Electricity Supply Board hereditaments is greater than the amount on which, in accordance with the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Act, 1930, the rates payable are calculated, only the lesser amount should have been included in the certificates. Legal opinion upheld the contention of the local authorities regarding the exclusion of the valuation of the small dwellings. On the question of the Electricity Supply Board hereditaments, the opinion obtained was to the effect that the higher figure was correctly included in the certificates.

A further legal opinion which was obtained on the question of the powers of the Commissioner of Valuation to rectify the position indicated, however, that the Act gave the Commissioner no power to amend his certificates and in the absence of express power it would not be implied or supported on any principle—otherwise there could be two or more ‘conclusive’ certificates showing different amounts.

The Department of Industry and Commerce informed the Department of Finance that it was not proposed to introduce legislation amending the Act of 1940 retrospectively, and that it was intended to adjust any amounts which had, on the basis of the Commissioner’s certificates, been over-contributed by local authorities. In reply, it was stated that the Minister for Finance would not, in present circumstances, press for amending legislation but that the matter should be submitted afresh should amendments to the Unemployment Assistance Acts in other respects be contemplated at any future date.

The total amount by which the sums payable by local authorities for the nine years 1934-35 to 1942-43 will be reduced as a result of this decision is estimated by the Department of Industry and Commerce at approximately £71,760, of which about £13,060 is in respect of the year 1942-43.

The revision of the amounts payable by the local authorities has been based by the Department on particulars supplied by the Valuation Office of the rateable value of the hereditaments which should, according to the legal opinion, have been excluded from the Commissioner’s certificates previously furnished. In view of the provisions of Section 5 of the Act of 1940, and the legal opinion on the power of the Commissioner to amend his certificates, I have deemed it desirable to refer to the matter.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—Beyond saying that our view is that, in view of counsel’s opinion, the means which have been adopted by the Department for adjusting the revised contributions are not legal and, therefore, not regular.

Mr. Ferguson.—This is a matter in which difficulty has arisen through conflict of two or three Acts and, as a matter of fairness to local authorities, on the small dwellings aspect of it, the Minister decided that it was not fair to push his claim. The position is to be regularised at the earliest moment it is practicable to do so. The same remark applies to the Electricity Supply Board difficulty. Speaking for myself only, not for the Minister, I think it would be better to have the Electricity Supply Board arrangement on the same lines as the general one, to have it symmetrical all through; in other words, not to have the amount based on rateable value in respect of which the local authority has not got any rates. It is a matter for adjustment at the earliest practicable moment.

837. Chairman.—I take it you propose to adjust it?—Subject to not introducing a Bill specially for that. It will be done at the first opportunity. If a Bill has to be introduced to do something else, it is intended to bring this matter into the Bill. That is why there has been a little delay in bringing in a Bill.

838. Deputy M. O’Sullivan.—Has no adjustment been made in fact?—Oh yes, adjustment has been made but made without proper authority, as the Comptroller reminds us.

839. Deputy Briscoe.—Would it not be better to consult legal opinion before Bills are introduced, or would it be possible to get legal opinion to agree on anything?

840. Chairman.—That is a question of policy.

Mr. Ferguson.—It is a very sound principle that the Deputy enunciates but not easy of application always.

841. Deputy Briscoe.—Was it not contemplated to have a decision of the court in the matter?—We got legal opinion on that point and were advised against it. According to the advice we got, we ought to regularise this thing as soon as practicable and the only hesitation is about rushing into a Bill on this one point. We hope in the very near future to get an opportunity of doing it.

842. Deputy Briscoe.—If your legal opinion had been in your favour, you would have gone to court?—That is questionable.

843. Chairman.—Deputy Briscoe will see in the second paragraph on page xxiii that two legal opinions agreed.

Mr. Ferguson.—I think we are satisfied, on the legal opinion we have got, that we are doing the right thing and we are accepting the claim put forward by local authorities.

844. Deputy Briscoe.—It will be regularised ultimately?—Yes.

On Subhead L.—Appropriations in Aid, I would draw attention to the fact that a rough calculation shows that it costs 20 per cent. of the unemployment assistance paid to administer this?—No, no.

845. Salaries and wages amount to £273,000 and there is a considerable amount of other expenses, making a fifth of the total paid out?—No.

Mr. Maher.—The fund is in receipt of other contributions as well.

846. The amount of assistance paid out was £1,050,000, at page 197.

Mr. Maher.—But there are payments from the fund in addition.

847. Does that mean that the wages are charged to this vote and there is no charge to the fund?

Mr. Ferguson.—The Appropriations in Aid represent the recovery of the salaries of the proportion of the staff engaged in the administration of unemployment insurance, as at L. 1—£179,000, page 198.

848. You get back £179,000?—Yes.

849. That is all right. At first sight, it frightened me.

Mr. Maher.—There is a contribution of £300,000 from the fund as well.

VOTE 60—INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL PROPERTY REGISTRATION OFFICE.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson called.

No question.

VOTE 71—REPAYMENT OF TRADE LOAN ADVANCES.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson further examined.

850. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor General as follows:—

“85. The charge to this vote represents the repayment to the Central Fund of amounts which remained outstanding after the expiration of two years from the date on which advances were made from the Central Fund on foot of guarantees given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce under the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts. The sums so repaid amounted to £18,992 7s. 3d. and related to the following companies: B. Toone and Company (Ireland), Limited (£2,807 15s. 6d.); Cloyne Clay Company, Limited (£10,031 15s. 1d.); McGrath Bros. (Blinds), Limited (£1,520 4s. 10d.); Ballysax Brick and Tile Company, Limited (£4,632 11s. 10d.). In the case of the Cloyne Clay Company, Limited, the receivership is not yet closed and I understand that further sums may be realised, which if received will be accounted for as exchequer extra receipts.

The outstanding balance, £84,343 17s. 1d., of the amount advanced from the Central Fund on foot of a guarantee given in respect of a loan to the Peat Fuel Company, Limited, under the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Acts was repaid from the vote in 1941-42. A further sum of £71 7s. 3d. was received during the year from the Receiver for this company and is accounted for as an exchequer extra receipt. I have asked for information regarding the final disposal of certain assets of this company and of the Ballysax Brick and Tile Company, Limited, which do not appear to have been included in the assets dealt with by the respective Receivers.”

Mr. Maher.—The point about the Peat Fuel Company was that it appeared the company held 790 acres of land, 1,000 acres of bog and a house at Carbery, Co. Kildare, but the Accounting Officer has since informed us that a doubt existed regarding the claims to these lands and that the legal adviser was consulted and advised that there was a prior claim to the lands to the debenture held by the Minister. It would appear that that asset did not materialise.

Mr. Ferguson.—That is the position.

851. Chairman.—I understand there is an advisory committee which advises the Minister concerning loans in cases such as those of the companies under review. Can you say whether, in each of these cases, the advisory committee recommended the loan before it was granted?—In each of the cases mentioned here? I would have to look that up. Normally, when a guarantee is given, that means that the committee has recommended in favour, but I should not like to answer your question specifically on those companies until I looked it up. I will send the information in afterwards*.

852. Deputy Briscoe.—With regard to the additional information given by the Comptroller and Auditor General, regarding the discovery now that there was a prior claim to the debenture on that land, I understood that the debenture of the Minister in these trade loans had priority over everything and that examination was made before the guarantee was given. At the moment, I cannot quite satisfy myself that the information now given by the Comptroller ought to be left as it is, without any further reference.

Mr. Ferguson.—We understood that this question was gone over fully last year and that this is a question merely of an extra receipt.

Mr. Maher.—Yes, the Peat Fuel Company was referred to, but the other matter was outstanding. I might help by a further statement. The company agreed to purchase these lands from the late Sir John Purser Griffith for £5,000, to be paid in instalments over a period of years. The instalment due on 1st November, 1938, had not been paid at the end of June, 1939, and presumably nothing further was paid to the Griffith Estate before the first receiver was appointed in July, 1939. It is stated that the property was subject to a charge and that the solicitors for the Griffith Estate held the title deeds “pending satisfaction of the charge thereon”. I understand that is the position still.

Mr. Ferguson.—I thought the Deputy was raising a more general question. That statement is correct and I have that note here also.

853. Deputy Briscoe.—Does that mean that you have the option, if the charge is in excess of what you consider to be the value of the land, that you can take over the land?—That is precisely what we did.

854. Then you are aware of this point? —Yes, but I thought it was a general point.

Mr. Maher.—As regards the second point, whether the recommendation of the Advisory Committee was acted on in all cases, from my note it would appear to have been acted on except in one case, the Ballysax Company. In that case the recommendation was against the issue of either loan. There was one of £600 and the other of £3,000. It would appear that the Advisory Committee did not recommend the loan in either case.

855. Chairman.—Maybe, Mr. Ferguson, you will go into the Ballysax case, particularly with a view to seeing whether the loans were granted against the advice of the committee?—I will send a note on the point*.

856. Deputy Briscoe—What is meant by the statement that there was an outstanding asset of the Ballysax Company?

Mr. Maher.—That related to an asset regarding two motor lorries. The accounting officer has informed us that one of these lorries has already been sold, and the other, which was under a hire purchase agreement, was returned to the persons from whom it was bought.

857. Deputy Briscoe.—Therefore, it is now complete?—Yes, as regards the Ballysax asset, on which we queried the accounting officer.

Mr. Ferguson.—Might I refer to the point raised regarding the advice. These committees—there is more than one— are advisory committees, and the procedure is that they either recommend or do not recommend. They do not recommend against. It is merely a matter of stating the position accurately. They do not recommend that the advance should not be given. The Minister’s general principle would be to consider bearing in mind the doubt expressed by the committee on the commercial feasibility, whether there are not good reasons why this loan should be given.

858. Chairman.—I understand concerning the Ballysax Company that the first advance was made by the Minister without any recommendation from the committee, and that after a time the company required another advance, which was also made without the recommendation of the committee?—I will send in a note on that point.

Chairman.—It would be better to do so.

859. Deputy Briscoe.—I think you said that, inherent in the Trade Loans Guarantee Acts, the Minister has the right to guarantee a trade loan whether the advisory committee recommends it or not?—It is only an advisory committee, and the Minister is not bound to take its advice.

860. Deputy Briscoe.—Without exception he has accepted the advice of the Advisory Committee?—It does not mean that, but it is the general practice.

VOTE 74—FOOD ALLOWANCES.

Mr. R. C. Ferguson called.

No question.

VOTE 52—LANDS.

Mr. M. Deegan called and examined.

861. Chairman.—Paragraph 40 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General reads:

“Subhead I.—Improvement of Estates, etc.

“In connection with the scheme whereby certain lands in County Meath available for relief of congestion are reserved for allottees from the Gaeltacht, sums amounting to £188 7s. 4d. expended in providing necessary general improvements are charged to this subhead. The total expenditure borne on the Vote for Lands in connection with the scheme from its inception in 1934-35 to 31st March, 1943, amounts to £102,851 10s. 11d. In addition, expenditure amounting to £2,050 9s. 10d., which was subsequently recouped to the Land Commission by the Office of Public Works, was incurred in the erection of a schoolhouse.

Under the scheme for the provision of holdings in certain counties in Leinster for migrants from districts where there is acute congestion, the expenditure, apart from the cost of general improvements (roads, drains, fences, etc.), borne on the Vote for Lands during the year amounts to £10,020 8s. 11d. The expenditure on this scheme from its inception in 193738 to 31st March, 1943, amounts to £94,465 1s. 10d., made up as follows:—

Until the scheme is completed it is not possible to apportion the expenditure on general improvements in respect of migrants’ holdings on the estates.”

Has the Comptroller and Auditor General anything to add to that?

…Mr. Maher.—That is an annual paragraph for the information of the Committee. We understand that when each estate is completed it will be possible to segregate the general improvements costs between the local men and the migrants.

862. Chairman.—Is it the policy, Mr. Deegan, of the migration scheme to bring people entirely from the West or is there any scheme whereby people might be migrated from, say, a place like Roscommon or less distant areas to Meath and to take other people from Connemara to Roscommon?—Yes, we are migrating people constantly both short and long distances. This particular scheme of migration is one from West to East and it is mentioned here because special assistance is given to the migrants, group migrants, mentioned in the paragraph. There are 198 holdings concerned in that scheme. As I say, we are constantly migrating people from different areas. In the past nine years, up to 1944 we migrated 2,533 families. Of these, 382 were from West to East, and of the 382, the 198 referred to in that paragraph got special assistance. The balance got no special assistance.

863. From your experience of the scheme, has it been found satisfactory to move people from poor lands such as those in Mayo and Galway to Meath?—It has been a thorough success. It is about the best work we are doing.

864. What about taking migrants from these counties to more adjacent areas like Roscommon?—Whether they are taken from West Galway to East Galway, or West Galway to Roscommon, they are all successful.

865. In the note to Subhead J. given in the details of the Vote itself, it is stated that there was a considerable increase in the receipts from untenanted land over the amount anticipated and that there was no charge to the subhead. Can you give any explanation as to how these lands remained unoccupied?—These are lands on hands pending allotment and while they are on our hands we have to meet charges for rates, interest on the purchase money, caretakers, herds and so on. We derive a certain revenue by letting them and in these years our revenue has far exceeded our expenditure, so that there is no charge to the subhead.

866. Deputy Cogan.—I should like to ask would there not be a charge to the subhead by reason of the deterioration of the land. If the land is being let for tillage, would it not deteriorate?—That would not produce a charge on the subhead. Our income exceeded our expenditure on the land. We had a surplus of practically £20,000.

867. But the value of the property would not be quite the same?—You are referring to the effect on the fertility of the soil, I presume?

Deputy Cogan.—Yes.

868. Chairman.—You do not make a valuation in regard to that?—We do not. We do not produce a profit and loss account.

VOTE 53—FORESTRY.

Mr. M. Deegan further examined.

869. Deputy Briscoe.—In regard to the saving on Subhead C.2, cultural operations, etc., does that mean that planting was less in that year than in former years?—Yes. There has been less planting for the last two years, mainly because of the lack of fencing materials. We cannot plant unless we have rabbit wire.

870. Has the Department given any consideration to a policy that has been considered elsewhere, that is, the growing of timber that will mature in a shorter time than has been the experience hitherto?— Yes, that has been the object of most of the forestry work done since we started in 1905.

871. But when you started operations, the need for growing rapidly-maturing timber was not so urgent as it has become since?—The majority of the trees planted are fast growing trees and they have been since we started reafforestation in 1905.

872. When you speak of fast-growing trees you have in mind trees that will mature in about 40 years?—Yes.

873. I had in mind trees which would mature in about ten years. I understand that there have been developments in other countries aimed at producing fast-growing and rapidly maturing trees?—I am sure our experts are up-to-date in their knowledge of any development of that kind. Personally, I have not heard of any trees that mature in ten years.

Deputy Briscoe.—I think if you get in touch with Sweden you will find out all about it.

874. Chairman.—Of course, larch and birch grow very quickly?—Yes, but they do not mature in ten years.

875. Deputy Briscoe.—I have seen some references in papers to the fact that trees are being cultivated in Sweden which mature very rapidly. Perhaps they are being produced for a different purpose to that for which we would need timber, maybe for pulp, and they might not suit this country. I take it that when facilities are again available, increased planting will be gone on with?—Our planting will increase as quickly as we can get the land and the fencing material.

876. Apparently there is no stoppage in the acquisition of land?—It has not been quite so easy to get land since sheep farming began to pay again.

877. I notice that under C. 1 there is a grant of £60,000 for the acquisition of land?—That is a grant-in-aid. We give none of that back. On page 176 you will see what was spent.

878. The actual money for the purchase of land is included in C. 2?—No, C. 1. But that has always been a grant-in-aid, not an annual grant.

879. You have spent it all?—No; what we spent is indicated on page 176.

880. Deputy Cogan.—Is the Department finding difficulty with regard to seeds?— It is difficult to get seeds from abroad. We were accustomed to get them from abroad, but we are collecting more of our own than we ever collected before. I have some information here that might interest the Committee. Since the war began we have not purchased any plants abroad. In 1942-43, we sowed 37,259 lbs. of seed. Of that quantity 341 lbs. were purchased abroad and 36,918 lbs were collected in our own woodlands. That is a very interesting development. During the past year our home-collected seed totalled 35,000 lbs.

881. Chairman.—Hitherto you purchased the most abroad?—Yes, I think most was purchased abroad.

882. Deputy Cogan.—Does your Department produce plants suitable for hedging—No, we go in for commercial timber, not quicks.

883. Is the Department finding difficulty in securing plants, such as quicks for fencing?—The private nurseries are able to provide all we need. We have not had much trouble in the Land Commission in getting all we need.

884. Deputy Briscoe.—With regard to subhead E. 1, which deals with forestry education, does the Department contemplate increasing its activities?—We have a school at Avondale and so far that has been able to provide for our needs in foresters. As we develop it may be necessary to increase the accommodation there; but we have the buildings and it is only a question of increasing the dormitory accommodation.

885. You are not turning too many away at the moment—too many applicants?—No, we are not.

886. It is the intention to develop forestry education?—As our work increases, the need for foresters increases. We can accommodate 20 or 24. If our work increases we might have to accommodate more.

887. How long does the course take?— Three years.

Do they all remain in order to qualify, or do some drop out?—Some drop out—not very many.

888. Is the percentage of those who qualify high?—It is. It is a three years’ course. We take in an average of 12 a year. Some are leaving us.

889. Some are leaving?—Yes; probably the wages elsewhere were higher.

890 Could you not try to attract good types and keep them there by giving a little extra? The work is very hard while they are going through the course?—We pay them as labourers while they are going through the course.

891. There is no possibility of regarding them as students and not as labourers?—We send them out as foremen.

892. Could not some effort be made to retain them? It is a pity to lose good boys, who go away because of the desire to get a few extra shillings. It is that that urges them and it is a pity they do not continue their education?—There is a career for them. Every boy who qualifies is certain of employment for the rest of his life in the State service.

893. What are they paid?—The same wage as labourers during the training course.

894. That would be the local wage in the Wicklow district?—It would.

895. Are they “all found”?—No, they have to contribute something out of their wages.

896. Do you not think that that requires some consideration?—It is always under consideration—as to whether we should change that system. In other colleges the students in training are “all found”.

897. The students have to pay for their keep out of labourers’ wages and study at the same time?—They succeed in doing it all right; there are no complaints.

898. I do not know about “no complaints”. The very fact that they leave is surely some indication?—Very few leave.

899. My suggestion is that we should put this forestry college on a higher standing. If there is a development in afforestation you will need first-class foresters in large numbers and permanently?—We will, always.

900. With regard to Sub-head H— Appropriations in Aid—you have not had the same trouble over the sale of trees as was discussed elsewhere recently?— What was that trouble?

901. It was published recently in another country that a forestry department was selling trees to a certain concern and that concern was making a good thing out of it?—We have a controlled price here and we have no means of ascertaining what any firm makes out of our timber. As regards small sales of timber, we sell at the forest; and as regards large sales of timber, we sell by means of advertisement and tender.

902. Where a farmer requires trees for planting, he can get them from your Department?—No.

903. How does the system work?—He goes to the private nursery. We do not cut across private nurseries. We do not sell from our nurseries except when we are overstocked and then we sell to the commercial nursery men. In the last few years we were overstocked and we sold plants ready for replanting to the nursery men.

904. Was that by tender?—No, we fix a price and then sell. We do not sell direct to farmers and others needing trees for planting.

905. What amount was sold?—During the past three years we sold to the trade as follows:—1941-42, 444,000; 1942-43, 400,000, and 1943-44, 850,000 plants.

906. What money did you receive?—I have not that information at the moment.

907. What was the amount per tree— The trees would be sold per thousand.

908. Roughly, what did you receive per thousand?—I could not tell you now.

909. Do you make a profit on this type of transaction?—We do; we certainly do not make a loss. We fix a price.

910. Deputy Cogan.—You fix the price, having regard to the prices the nurserymen are charging?—Undoubtedly—the trade price.

911. Chairman.—Would the sale of trees come under the heading of “Small Sales of Timber and Thinnings” in the year under review, the amount realised being £10,319 15s. 8d.?—These are small sales of under £10 at the forest.

VOTE 54—GAELTACHT SERVICES.

Mr. M. Deegan further examined.

912. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor General has the following note:—

“41. Under the Housing (Gaeltacht) Acts, 1929 to 1939, the aggregate amount of grants and loans which may be made is not to exceed £750,000.

During the year the sanction given for certain grants and loans was cancelled, as the applicants were unable or unwilling to comply with the conditions attached to the grants or loans.

At 31st March, 1943, the position regarding such grants and loans was as follows:—

Mr. Maher.—That is an annual paragraph for information purposes.

913. Chairman.—His next note is as follows:—

“42. I have been furnished with a schedule concerning the industrial loans, from which it appears that there were no advances made during the year ended 31st March, 1943. Arrears, including interest accrued, due at that date amounted to £10,157 19s. 7d., as compared with £10,060 17s. 3d. on 31st March, 1942. Included in the arrears is a sum of £10,102 6s. 3d. due by a company which ceased to exist in 1925. As stated in previous reports, the realisation of such security as is held by the State was the subject of negotiations, but owing to certain legal difficulties realisation cannot be effected.”

Mr. Maher.—This matter was discussed by the Committee in previous years. It relates to the Galway Granite Company.

914. Deputy Briscoe.—It has to be written off; it cannot be realised?—That will have to be written off, but a very small amount of it will be realised when the State Lands Act comes along—it has been promised for years. That will enable us to sell the property, but we will be getting only £300 for it, so that the balance will have to be written off. The amount is made up largely of interest. It is an old loan, made by the Congested Districts Board in 1910. The company has disappeared since 1925.

915. Nothing can be done until the State Lands Act comes in, so that you can wipe this out?—If we had the State Lands Act we could sell the asset for £300.

916. Chairman.—Does this relate to the quarry at Roundstone?—No, the Galway Granite and Marble Works. There are some old buildings, practically in the city.

917. Deputy Briscoe.—Arising out of subhead I.—Appropriations in Aid—are steps being taken to get the Gaeltacht industries, which are covered by your Department, more or less on a permanent basis? I understand that negotiations have to take place between your Department and the Department of Industry and Commerce with regard to having all these as permanent parts of the activities of your Department rather than follow the haphazard way that was followed in the past, having a kind of alleviation of distress more than anything else. I understand it has been found that the products of the Gaeltacht industries are now finding favour in certain markets and they are likely to become permanent features of the trade of the country?—We would hope so, but during the emergency and in view of the shortage of materials, we have been rather lucky in that we have been able to fill some blanks. I do not know, however, what you have in mind as a permanent form of effort on our part as distinct from this annual Vote.

918. It has come to my knowledge that certain of the products of some of your industries have now found favour in the commercial centres of the world?—They have undoubtedly.

919. And there is likely to be an increasing demand year after year, so that ultimately the industry will become an industry, as it is generally understood, as distinct from the nursing which has had to be carried on up to the present, and in that connection I was wondering if serious steps are being taken by your Department to take advantage of what you have created and reap the benefit not only for your Department but for the people employed at the work in the different parts of the country?—It is a little too soon to make any pronouncement. We shall have to wait and see what conditions are like in the post-war world.

920. But you have found what I suggest?—In regard to some items, but, taking the thing by and large, this work is still a social service

921. When you can remove it from the position of a social service to a distinct industry, you will do so, I presume?— What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean to hand it over to a private commercial firm, or to form a company to operate it?

922. No, that the methods adopted will be more businesslike than they are at present. You have developed certain lines in which there is a regular trade. You get orders as if you were a business house and you supply these orders. That applies to certain lines on an ever-increasing basis, but there is no definite industrial activity?—We do our best, subject to all the restrictions of a Government Department. We get as close to the commercial method of doing everything as we possibly can, and we have had a certain success, particularly in certain lines. We are going ahead, as you will see from some of the subheads, on the spinning side. The spinning mill at Kilcar is held up for want of machinery, but it is hoped to get finishing and dyeing plant in there for the benefit of the homespun and homewoven industries within the next 12 months. I would say, however, that it is a little too soon to arrive at any definite decision.

923. You are not losing sight of the fact that there is a valuable asset in the shape of foreign trade as distinct from a purely social service activity and trying to induce people at home to buy tweeds which they are apparently not prepared to buy?—We have been very glad to keep up a certain export in certain lines during the past few difficult years. We have been very lucky in some ways.

924. And you will try to cash in on it in the post-war years?—We certainly will. We see possibilities there, but how to get it away from the position of a Government Department into the position of a commercial business is another question.

925. Chairman.—No doubt you will have plenty of suggestions when the time comes.

Mr. Deegan.—If there is any money in it.

The Committee adjourned.

* Appendix IX.

* Appendix IX.

* Appendix IX.

* Appendix IX.