Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1944 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1942 - 1943

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Déardaoin, 9ú Samhain, 1944.

Thursday, 9th November, 1944.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY DILLON in the chair.

Mr. John Maher (An tArd-Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste), and Mr. C. S. Almond, Mr. L. O Broin, Mr. L. M. Fitzgerald and Mr. F. T. McHenry (An Roinn Airgeadais), called and examined.

Chairman.—The first Vote is Vote 21, but before dealing with that Vote, perhaps I should mention, gentlemen, what already has been communicated to us, that we had expected to have Mr. Ferguson here to deal with the Department of Industry and Commerce to-day but, unfortunately, Mr. Ferguson is indisposed, and we trust that he will be restored to health soon, when we shall have the pleasure of meeting him. In the meantime, Mr. Whelehan is here to give us whatever information he has on Vote 21.

VOTE 21—STATIONERY AND PRINTING.

Mr. J. B. Whelehan called and examined.

284. Chairman.—In connection with subhead F. 6—Publication of Irish Translation of the New Testament—what is the state of affairs in connection with that?

Mr. Whelehan.—I have here a note which I received recently from the editor, and in it he says that about two-thirds of the entire work is now well advanced and almost ready for press. He goes on to say:

“However, I can hold out no hope of an early appearance of the complete New Testatment. For the benefit of those who, in their impatience to have the New Testament in their hands, fail to grasp the difficult nature of the work, some examples of the time taken by other editors may be adduced. Daniel’s Irish translation of the New Testament, made at a time when literary Irish was at its best, took 20 years to complete and ten years more to print. In more recent times, the Westminster Version took well over 20 years, and the American Revision of the Rheims New Testament engaged some 27 Biblical scholars for over five years.”

That is all the consolation I have to give.

285. I understand that this is a translation of the Douai Version?—Yes.

286. And which will carry the imprimatur of the Catholic Church?—Yes.

287. With regard to subhead F. 7—Preparation and publication of Oireachtas Handbook—is it intended to prepare a new Oireachtas Handbook, consequent on the recent general election?—Yes, we have just received authority to proceed with that.

288. I suppose that no dark significance attaches to the fact that such a document was not forthcoming after the last general election?—I do not think there was any political significance to be attached to it.

289. It was a matter of prudence rather than of precedent?—Well, I think that the question of supplies had a little to do with it.

VOTE 22—VALUATION AN D BOUNDARY SURVEY.

Mr. C. C. McElligott called

No question.

VOTE 23—ORDNANCE SURVEY.

Mr. C. C. McElligott called.

No question.

VOTE 39—PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE.

Mr. D. Coffey called and examined.

290. Chairman.—I know that the Committee will wish me to express our regret that we no longer have Mr. Morrissey with us and that we offer him our best wishes for the enjoyment of his leisure during many years to come, and at the same time to say that we welcome Mr. Coffey who is here to give us the benefit of his information in regard to the Public Record Office Vote. Now, Mr. Coffey, could you tell us, in connection with family muniments which families are prepared to hand over to the State, whether they are best offered to the National Library or to the Public Record Office?

Mr. Coffey.—It would depend to some extent on the nature of the muniments. If they contained a large percentage of legal documents which were substitutes for what had been already contained in the Public Record Office, I should say that they should go to the Public Record Office. If, on the other hand, they were purely personal records, I should say that they would be more appropriate to the National Library, but it is a question on which it would be difficult to give a general answer.

291. Ordinarily, it would be appropriate, I suppose, to consult the librarian of the National Library as to which would be the best course?—It would be a matter for consultation.

292. I mention the matter because recently, the papers of one old house in rural Ireland were shown to me, and they consisted, largely, of domestic account books and correspondence which gave a very interesting picture of life in a big house in the 18th century, and I imagine that most of those would properly go to the National Library?—Well, “every herring hangs by its own tail,” and without seeing them I could not say. From your description it would sound more appropriate to send them to the National Library, but I should not like to lay down a general rule.

293. Might I say that there is in existence a practice whereby one can donate documents to the National Library on permanent loan, reserving the ownership to the household. Is that possible in connection with the Public Record Office? —Yes, it is quite common.

VOTE 40—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.

Mr. W. Smyth called.

No question.

VOTE 43—DUNDRUM ASYLUM.

Dr. G. W. Scroope called and examined.

294. Chairman.—With regard to Subhead C.—Uniforms, Clothing for Patients, etc.—does the clothing of patients in Dundrum take the form of a uniform, or is it just ordinary clothing such as the ordinary citizen wears?

Dr. Scroope.—It takes the form of a uniform. Well, it is not a regular uniform; it is ordinary grey clothing or grey suiting.

295. Quite. It has not got the decorative black stripe that appears in the grey clothing at Portlaoighise?—No, there are no decorations or outstanding marks.

296. Deputy Dockrell.—With regard to Subhead D.—Medicines and so on—£40 seems a small sum for medicines. Is there any other expenditure on medicines?— No.

297. They must be very healthy?—Yes, they are fairly healthy. Of course, if it is necessary to do any major operation on a patient, we get sanction for that. On the average, £40 works out all right.

298. Chairman.—In fact, in the current year, you spent only £22 5s. 7d. under that subhead?—Yes.

299. Are there any therapeutic measures taken with a view to curing patients?—Yes.

300. Deputy S. Brady.—What would you say is the percentage of cures under such treatment?—Well, it would be very hard to say what the percentage is.

301. Chairman.—Do you find many patients susceptible to therapeutic treatment?—Yes.

302. If the patients do yield to treatment, and you are satisfied that they are cured, what is the procedure then?—The procedure is that we report the matter to the Government if we consider that they are quite cured, and then they deal with them as they think fit.

303. Would you have a number of cases of that character every year, or would some years pass when you would not deem it necessary to report any patient as having been cured—Yes, some years might pass like that.

304. But occasionally you do report patients as having been cured?—Yes, some years might pass like that.

304. But occasionally you do report patients as cured?—Yes.

305. Deputy S. Brady.—What I want to get at is whether we are making any headway in that respect. At present, under modern treatment, is the number of cures greater than it was some years ago?—Yes; I would say it is, decidedly.

306. Deputy Dockrell.—I suppose in certain cases the treatment would alleviate their complaint without perhaps curing them?—Quite so.

VOTE 61—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.

Mr. P. S. O’Hegarty called and examined.

“Subhead E.1.—Conveyance of Mails by Rail.

“56. In view of the restrictions in train services which, owing to the emergency, came into operation on 8th October, 1941, and which seriously affected the services which the Great Southern Railways Company renders to the Department, negotiations were entered into with the company for a revision of the payment of £162,086 1s. 7d. per annum under the existing contract. It was ultimately agreed that the remuneration payable under the contract should be continued up to 31st December, 1942, but that, as from 1st January, 1943, the payment would be reduced to £130,000 per annum during the continuance of the emergency, subject to the maintenance in full of the restricted services then being afforded to the Department by the company. The payment of £130,000 per annum is to remain unaffected in the event of the company’s scale of general parcel charges being increased, unless such increase exceeds 25 per cent. and then only to the extent of the excess over 25 per cent., and the general conditions of the existing contract are to remain in full force otherwise.”

307. Chairman.—Is there anything you care to add to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—The purpose of the paragraph is to show the variation in the existing contract, following the reduction in rail services.

308. Is there anything you care to say on that, Mr. O’Hegarty?—No; I think it is quite clear.

309. Has the service supplied by the railway company deteriorated or improved since the contract was amended?—I think it has slightly improved.

“Losses by Default, etc.

“57. The losses borne on the Vote for the year ended 31st March, 1943, amounted to £3,003 18s. 3d., of which £2,515 16s. 4d. was charged to subhead H. 2 and £488 1s. 11d. to subhead 0. 6. Classified schedules of these losses are set out at pages 210 and 214. At pages 213 and 215 particulars are given of 39 cases in which cash shortages or misappropriations amounting to £500 18s. 4d. were discovered; the sums in question were made good and no charge to public funds was necessary.”

310. Chairman.—Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—No, Mr. Chairman. The details will be found on the pages referred to, and when examining the account the Committee can ask any questions they wish.

Chairman.—Then we will postpone examination of the details until we come to the subheads in question.

“Subhead T.—Appropriations in Aid.

“Void Postal Orders.

“58. As noted in the account, the amount of £2,800 appropriated under this heading is, under revised accounting arrangements, partly estimated. It was the normal practice to credit appropriations in aid with the value of postal orders of all denominations which were uncashed after three years from the date of issue, but on the grounds of economy it was decided, with Department of Finance approval, to discontinue the sorting of paid postal orders of certain denominations. As a consequence no record is now available of those uncashed and the amount due to be credited in the year under review in respect of the denominations affected has had to be estimated.”

311. Chairman.—Have you any further comment to make on that?

Mr. Maher.—Hitherto, the amount included under this heading was the actual figure based on the value of the outstanding postal orders. As stated in the Report it is partly estimated—that is as regards the lower denominations. The figure will not be the actual figure in future.

312. What is the denomination below which you do not sort the postal orders now?

Mr. O’Hegarty.—Below two shillings and sixpence.

313. Are you satisfied with that procedure?—Oh, yes.

314. We may take it that the situation will be watched?—It will be very carefully watched.

“Stores.

“59. A test examination of the store accounts was carried out with generally satisfactory results.

In previous reports I have referred to the difficulties, consequent on the emergency, in following the normal procedure in connection with the purchase of supplies. These difficulties still exist and contracts continue to be placed either without competition or divided among a number of contractors in order to obtain early deliveries. Investigation of costs was carried out by the Department in cases where the quoted prices appeared to justify such action, and reductions in prices were obtained in a number of cases.”

315. Chairman.—Is there anything you care to add to that?

Mr. Maher.—That sub-paragraph and the following sub-paragraph show the variations in the existing procedure as regards contracts, following the emergency.

Note 59 continues:—

“A general authority has been given to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs by the Minister for Finance to release contractors from their contracts where, owing to the emergency, it has become impossible or unreasonably difficult for them to supply the goods contracted for, and to waive any claim for damages that might be preferred against those contractors who are not protected by a war clause from such a claim. A note is appended to the account covering the contracts for stores, etc., ordered for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in which this authority was exercised during the year under review. Similar notes relating to contracts entered into on behalf of other Government Departments in connection with which the authority was also exercised are appended to the accounts of Votes Nos. 30, 33, 56 and 63.”

316. Chairman.—Have you anything to add to that sub-paragraph?

Mr. Maher.—No.

Note 59 continues:—

“In my report on the account for the year 1940-41 I referred to a limitation in the check of the postal and engineering stores by officers of the Department. Complete stocktaking of these stores was resumed during the year under review and, as a result, deficiencies amounting to £7,493 15s. 7d. were written off, while surpluses amounting to £5,894 12s. 6d. were adjusted in the store accounts. I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding the writing off of certain items.”

317. Chairman.—Have you anything to add to that?

Mr. Maher.—We have had a reply from the Accounting Officer as regards those items. They relate mainly to bicycles, and in the reply, which we consider satisfactory, the error has now been reduced to one bicycle. That is the present position.

318. Are we correct in assuming that it first appeared that several bicycles had been misappropriated, and that subsequently the bulk of them were located?

Mr. O’Hegarty.—Yes.

319. And that only one is now missing? —Yes.

320. Is it to be assumed that that bicycle has been stolen?—Well, as it happens, there is one new bicycle missing, but we have a surplus old one in stock. It is in all probability due to an error in recording.

321. Deputy Dockrell.—In connection with the surpluses amounting to £5,894 12s. 6d., does that mean that surplus stores were discovered or is it a book-keeping transaction due to the fact that the value of stores which you already knew of has been increased?—It is actually stores, but those amounts are probably book-keeping errors.

322. But in regard to the £5,894 12s. 6d., does that mean so many items which were not down in the stores, or so many items the value of which had increased?—It was a surplus beyond what was recorded.

323. Chairman.—In fact it is an adjustment of volume and not of value?—Yes.

324. Are you satisfied now, Mr. Maher, that the check on the Postal Engineering Stores is sufficient?

Mr. Maher.—Yes, but this relates to the accounts for the year ended March, 1943, and in our next report we will refer to that matter again.

325. Are you satisfied with the position, Mr. O’Hegarty?

Mr. O’Hegarty.—Yes. The full check has now been restored.

Note 59 continues:—

“In addition to the engineering stores shown in Appendix II as valued at £210,215 on the 31st March, 1943, engineering stores to the value of £516 were held on behalf of other Government Departments. Stores other than engineering stores held at that date were valued at £291,877, included in this amount being a sum of £114,133 in respect of stores held for other Government Departments.”

326. Chairman.—Is there anything you care to add to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—That paragraph is for information only.

“Revenue.

“60. A test examination of the accounts of the postal, telegraph and telephone services was carried out with satisfactory results.

Sums due for telephone services amouting in all to £331 3s. 7d. were written off during the year as irrecoverable.”

“Post Office Savings Bank Accounts.

“61. The accounts of the Post Office Savings Bank for the year ended 31st December, 1942, were submitted to a test examination with satisfactory results.”

“Post Office Factory.

“62. Owing to an outbreak of fire at the Post Office Factory, St. John’s Road, Dublin, on 4th November, 1942, the factory building, plant, stores, etc., of an estimated value of £25,480 18s. 5d. were destroyed. This figure was made up of £12,749 5s. 4d. for plant, equipment, and partly manufactured stores; £5,035 7s. 7d. for stores on ledger charge; and £7,696 5s. 6d. for property belonging to other Government Departments and outside bodies. In assessing the value of the items destroyed, stores were valued at rate-book prices, i.e., the average buying prices at which the stores were purchased; works in progress were valued on the basis of materials at rate-book prices plus cost of labour and overhead charges; the value of plant and tools was estimated at the date of the fire, and for mechanical transport destroyed, the residual value was taken as at that date. For the building, and the furniture and fittings therein supplied by the Office of Public Works, a valuation furnished by that Office was accepted, and the original cost prices were used in valuing the property of other Government Departments, and such furniture and fittings, etc., as had been manufactured in the factory. A sum of £275 was realised from the sale of scrap plant and has been taken into account in arriving at the figure of £25,480 18s. 5d., referred to above, in respect of which the necessary adjustments in the various accounts have been sanctioned by the Department of Finance.

Owing to the loss of machinery in the fire it was not possible to complete two contracts which had been placed with the factory and the contracts were accordingly terminated and given to outside firms.

It was found possible during the year under review to resume factory activities on a limited scale at St. John’s Road and the sanction of the Department of Finance for expenditure on the purchase of the necessary plant and equipment was obtained.

The factory records were almost entirely preserved and the usual test examination has been applied to the accounts of the factory with satisfactory results.

Including works in progress on 31st March, 1943, the expenditure on manufacturing jobs during the year amounted to £15,042, expenditure on repair work (other than repairs to mechanical transport) amounted to £9,710, and expenditure on mechanical transport repairs amounted to £2,235. These figures include losses amounting to £8,023, arising out of the fire.”

327. Chairman.—Have you anything to add to that paragraph, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—Generally, the paragraph is for the purpose of showing the effects of the fire, financially and otherwise, and for the information of the Committee.

328.—Chairman.—How did the fire originate?

Mr. O’Hegarty.—It was not possible to establish how it originated. The opinion of the fire brigade, after close examination, was that it originated from a stove. They could find no other likely cause.

329. —Deputy Lydon.—Was there no caretaker there?—There was a night-watchman. In whatever way it originated, it developed with extraordinary rapidity. The building was, in a sense, inflammable and there was a fairly large quantity of stores in it. The fire developed very quickly and there was no chance, apparently, of controlling it.

330. Deputy S. Brady.—I should like to know if smoking is permitted on the part of employees in such places?—I cannot say offhand but the fire developed hours after the place had been vacated by the ordinary staff.

Deputy S. Brady.—That would not be sufficient proof that it was not caused by smoking. The reason I raise this question is that I have recently observed that, in various Government offices, where there are large supplies of paper, partitions made of plywood and inflammable matter, smoking seems to be the general practice, whereas in most industrial concerns smoking is strictly prohibited. I think that it is a matter of which we should take very serious notice.

331. Chairman.—Perhaps Mr. Hegarty would give us his views as to what the usual practice is in establishments of this kind which are under his authority.

Mr. O’Hegarty.—The practice is that smoking is not allowed where any danger is involved. I can clear up the point about this particular building and let the Committee know later.*

332. Chairman.—We may assume that very careful inquiry was made by the Fire Brigade at the time to locate the cause of the fire?—Yes; they made very exhaustive inquiries.

333. Were you satisfied that the night-watchman was as vigilant as he should have been?—I was not. The night watchman was cleared both by the Fire Brigade and the Gárda authorities. The Fire Brigade said that the fire could have developed and reached the point which it had reached when they got to the place even if the watchman had inspected the building at the time he should have inspected it. Personally, I have been unable to accept that conclusion. I think that it is impossible the fire could have occurred in such circumstances. My personal opinion was that the night watchman had not inspected the place at the time he should have inspected it. He was supposed to inspect the buildings every two hours but the time clock, which he was supposed to punch, was out of order and under repair on the night the fire occurred. In view of the fact that the night watchman had been cleared by two authorities, there was nothing to be done except take him off that duty. I took him off watching duties and put him on other duties.

334. Are you rebuilding the factory or have you postponed that until after the emergency?—We cleared another building which was holding stores in the factory and put the bulk of the new factory equipment there. We propose to build later. At the moment, we cannot.

335. As regards Subhead BB., what international conferences or conventions called for expenditure in that year?—I think that that item mainly represents subscriptions to the various international unions.

336. Deputy S. Brady.—Does Subhead C. (Rent, Office Fittings, etc.) include the offices in Henry Street which were supposed to be turned into shops?—The G.P.O. buildings are Board of Works premises. The premises referred to in this subhead are leased by the Post Office.

337. Chairman.—They are premises for which you are paying rent?—Yes.

338. Deputy S. Brady.—Do the premises to which I refer come under the Board of Works or the Post Office?

339. Chairman.—Is there a subhead which shows the rent receipts for the shops which have been made in the G.P.O. building or do they appear under Appropriations in Aid. Perhaps they are annexed to the Board of Works Estimate? —I think that that is a Board of Works item.

340. Chairman.—Perhaps Mr. Maher can help us.

Mr. Maher.—Frankly, I do not know.

341. Deputy S. Brady.—Quite a number of these shops seem to have been unoccupied since they were erected and a number of them are still boarded-up. I should like to know what the position is regarding them.

Mr. O’Hegarty.—The boarded-up shops are being used at present by the Post Office. We shifted some of the factory stores in there when we had to get the other building in the factory vacated.

342. Deputy S. Brady.—Has the idea of making that a shopping centre not been found successful?

343. Chairman.—Have you the letting of those shops, Mr. O’Hegarty, or is it a matter for the Board of Works?—It is a joint business. We have to get the consent of the Board of Works to the lettings.

344. Ordinarily, you would receive the applications of prospective tenants?—Yes.

345. Deputy Brady would like to know if there has been a brisk demand for those shops?—I should not like to say that there is a brisk demand but I should, certainly, say that there is a demand. The fact that the shops are there does not involve any loss to the State.

Mr. Maher.—On page 208, there is a post office receipt of £7,084, representing the rent of Post Office premises sublet. I am not in a position to say whether or not that includes the rent of the premises to which Deputy Brady refers.

346. Chairman.—That would scarcely include the rent of the shop premises in the Henry Street area?—I shall have to let the Committee know.* My own impression is that that amount does not include the rent of the Henry Street premises.

Chairman.—Mr. O’Hegarty will let us have a note on that matter. If any question arises, Deputy Brady can raise the matter here next year or in another place.

347. Deputy Dockrell.—As regards Subhead E. 2 (Conveyance of Mails by Road), does that include the cost of maintaining the vans?—It does where the Post Office provides the vans. That subhead covers the cost of services by mail car done by contract and the cost of road services done by the Post Office itself. It includes the maintenance of vans used by the Post Office itself on such services.

348. Do you not maintain any of the postal vans?—We maintain such as are our own property. Generally, the vans you see in the rural areas are the property of contractors who maintain them. They have contracts to carry mails between one place and another.

349. Those vans are marked “P. 7 T.” and the general public would not know that they were not the property of the Post Office?—Some of them would be marked “P. 7 T.” but most of the “P. 7 T.” vans are our own.

350. Under what heading would they come?—All are included in this subhead.

351.—Deputy Pattison.—Up to the time of the petrol rationing, we had mostly motor vans on those services. Recently, I noticed that most undesirable types of cars were being used for this purpose throughout the country and that the mails are exposed to all sorts of weather. What provision is made in the contract for the keeping of the mails covered?— There is a provision in the contract that the mails are to be protected.

352. It is not being done?—If the Deputy will mention a specific case, I shall take it up.

Deputy Pattison.—I mention the City of Kilkenny*.

353. Chairman.—Ordinarily, I suppose the mail carrier would be expected to provide weather-tight conveyances in which the mails would be secure from wind and weather?—Yes.

354. As regards E. 3, what are “Packet services at home”?—They are boat services to various islands.

355. Deputy Dockrell.—Does Subhead E. 4 (Packet Services: British and Foreign) include the contract in respect of the L.M.S. boats at Dun Laoghaire?— Yes.

356. Is that all that is covered by that item?—I think that that is practically all. We are sending mails by direct boat to Lisbon and something would be included in the subhead for that but, in the main, it refers to the cross-Channel contract.

357. Deputy S. Brady.—As regards D.3. (Manufacture of Stamps, etc), I should like to make inquiries about the stamping machine which, I understand, was purchased some years ago and which did not give satisfaction for quite a long time. Is that machine now in satisfactory order? It was to be used for making rolls of stamps for the automatic machines?— That is a matter entirely for the Revenue Commissioners. They provide the machine and make the stamps.

Chairman.—That is a matter on which Mr. Cleary could have given us information.

358. Deputy Dockrell.—Do the issues of Commemoration stamps, of which we have had a large number recently, bring any large profit to the State? In certain countries, I understand that these stamps do bring a considerable profit?—It may be taken that, in every case, there is a profit.

359. It pays us to issue Commemoration stamps?—It does.

Chairman.—With regard to the question you raised, Deputy Brady, if you wish a note to be sent to Mr. Cleary, we will be very glad to do it.*

Deputy S. Brady.—Very well.

360. Deputy Cosgrave.—Who decides what form the Commemoration stamps will take?—The Government.

361. Deputy S. Brady.—Does Subhead M. include public kiosks—Yes.

362. I should like to ask whether there has been any improvement in the position with regard to damage done to these public kiosks. Some time ago the damage was very considerable in many places. I know that around Rathmines and Ranelagh it was very bad. It went so far that they actually poured tar into the money box so that you could not get in the coins. There was also smashing of glass and general interference with the public telephones?—There is still a good deal of wanton damage being done, but there has been an improvement of late.

363. Is there any immediate way of detecting serious interference?—Of course we usually only detect it when a member of the public finds it is not working and reports it.

364. I have often reported about the Ranelagh kiosks. The difficulty is that the means of reporting is cut off?—At present we inspect the kiosks every day for that particular purpose and that seems to have the effect of reducing the damage. It is often done by boys through sheer wantonness.

365. Chairman.—As to the Appropriations-in-aid, have you had any review of the expedition with which trunk calls can be got? Is the position deteriorating or improving, in your judgment?—At the present moment I do not think it is improving because there is difficulty being caused in all sorts of ways. The difficulty is increasing. There is difficulty in getting the necessary materials to increase the trunk line. Supplies cannot be got and we have to husband what supplies we have.

366. Are you satisfied that in connection with automatic telephones the reply to “0” and “31,” “32” and “30” are reasonably expeditious?—I think they are. There will always be exceptional cases where the reply seems to be delayed, but on the whole I think they are.

367. Deputy S. Brady.—Have you found that the new regulation about cutting off the coin caller is generally satisfactory?— I think so.

368. It certainly was very badly needed. From the caller’s point of view, it certainly is more satisfactory. I was wondering whether from the other point of view it was also satisfactory?—It has been very satisfactory so far.

369. Chairman.—I take it the Departmental view would be that it is very much of a pis aller. A very much better solution would be to provide better accommodation, if the material were available? —We propose to do so when the material is available.

370. Normally, if the Post Office could induce people to use the trunk lines for an hour and threequarters, it would mean all the more revenue to the Post Office?— Yes.

371. Deputy Dockrell.—Is there any likelihood of an improvement in the supply situation? Has it eased somewhat lately?—No, it has not. We manage to get very small supplies an odd time and that is all that comes in.

372. Chairman.—I think it is worth emphasising that, while it may be right and proper in a time of emergency and restricted supplies to impose a restriction on the length of conversations, in principle it is a bad thing to have to do that. It would be much better if it were open to any person wishing to use the telephone service to be free to use it for any length of time he chooses?—I quite agree.

373. There is a danger, if I might say so with respect, of bureaucrats managing our lives, feeling that they have a kind of permanent duty to ration our loquacity on the telephone on the ground that we talk too much. I take it that a citizen ought to be able to use the trunk service as long as he wants to?—Provided he pays for it. For a local call, of course, he just pays the same amount for ten minutes as for ten seconds.

374. Deputy S. Brady.—That was the very grave complaint that we had. My experience, when I had not the telephone in my own house, was that I often travelled three miles and visited five telephone boxes to find each engaged. On many occasions I found a young lady talking to some person at the other end for over half an hour while people were waiting outside to make a call. I was, therefore, very glad to hear that there are no complaints from the other side. It has been most satisfactory so far as I personally have experience of it. Formerly you put in 2d. and you could talk as long as you liked. The danger now is that we may go to the other extreme. You get a warning, and automatically you are cut off. Of course, you can put in another 2d.

375. Chairman.—I think the Committee would be interested to hear the Department’s view from the permanent point of view. Is it the intention of the Department to maintain as a normal feature of the telephone service that a person making a 2d. local call in a public call office is to be cut off after a certain length of time, or is it the desire of the Department to restore in normal times facilities which would allow of unlimited conversation for a payment of 2d.?—The present regulation is an entirely emergency one. We would like to put up two or three kiosks in some places but we cannot do it.

376. It would be the Departmental view that, to meet the difficulty which everyone has experienced and which Deputy Brady has described, the best way would be to put up more kiosks rather than to restrict the period of time for the amorous swain who is carried away by the ecstacy of love?—The Department would like to encourage everyone to talk to his best girl as long as he likes.

377. With that view I trust the Committee will find themselves in complete agreement with the Department?—I presume you do not expect me to agree with your comment on bureaucrats because I do not.

378. Chairman.—I am sure you assumed I gave you an opportunity of expressing dissent?

379. Deputy Dockrell.—Surely the Department does not expect the loquacity of the public to cease with the emergency? I am inclined to agree with Deputy Brady. Whilst it may have happened during the emergency, I always understood that it really had nothing to do with the emergency?—Yes, it has.

380. Am I wrong in that?—We will always have to consider whether a point has not been reached when we have to limit conversations.

381. I would be of that opinion?— There are so many restrictions on freedom in the world at present that the Department would prefer to reduce them rather than increase them.

Deputy Dockrell.—I agree with that, but I doubt if the loquacity of the public will cease with the emergency.

382. Chairman.—There are two alternative remedies, one is to reduce the time which the Department is prepared to give to the user of the telephone for 2d., and the other to increase the number of kiosks available so that if an amorous swain is in the kiosk No. 1, there will be kiosk No. 2 and kiosk No. 3 available for the hard-headed businessman?—That is so.

383. I take it the view of the Department is that the ideal solution of that problem would be to provide sufficient kiosks rather than to reduce the time available to any person?—Yes, limited always by the revenue consideration.

Chairman.—One cannot imagine that romance would constitute a drain on the Exchequer in this country.

384. Deputy Breslin.—Is it intended to extend the telephone service in the rural areas after the emergency?—Yes, there is a plan under consideration for a very considerable extension of the telephone service without paying prime regard to cost.

385. Deputy S. Brady.—Is it the intention to give a more continuous service to country subscribers? In certain districts, in Enniskerry, for instance, you are cut off at 8 p.m.?—Yes, the Post Office would like to give a longer service generally. We have increased the service in certain cases in the last few years and I think that policy will go on.

VOTE 62—WIRELESS BROADCASTING.

Mr. P. S. O’Hegarty further examined.

386. Deputy S. Brady.—With reference to Question Time, what exactly is the position? Who is paid by the Post Office authorities and who is paid by the people running Question Time? Are all those concerned with Question Time under the authority of the Broadcasting Department?—Are you referring to the Question Time broadcast from country towns?

387. I am referring to the Question Time that takes place in various parts of the country each Sunday?—I am afraid I cannot answer that offhand; I shall have to make inquiries and I will let the Committee know.

388. Chairman.—The point is, is it only the compere who is the servant of the Department or are the adjudicator and the other participants salaried servants?

389. Deputy S. Brady.—I should like to know if they are paid by the postal authorities or by the authorities running the show.

Deputy Lydon.—They are usually paid by the local people.

390. Chairman.—Is there any salaried servant of the Post Office temporarily or permanently on duty on the occasion of Question Time in a rural town, other than the compere?

391. Deputy Lydon.—The Post Office pay to the local organising committee a fee for permission to broadcast Question Time—is not that the position?

Witness.—Yes.

392. Chairman.—At your convenience, Mr. O’Hegarty, you will look into the matter and give us the information?*— Certainly.

393. Deputy Lydon.—What is the position with regard to the short-wave wireless station on which the Post Office authorities were carrying out trials?— The short-wave station was established experimentally, but it did not give satisfaction—it could not be heard. It is a question of power.

394. Was there a flaw in design?—No, there was no flaw in design.

395. In the construction of this station was there a flaw in that it did not provide enough power?—That is what was wrong with it.

396. Would that not be a flaw in design?—No. If we had the power we could have worked it satisfactorily. It was limited by what we could get in wartime.

397. Then it was really due to emergency conditions?—Yes.

VOTE 44—NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE.

Mr. J. Hurson (with whom was Mr. J. A. Duffy) called and examined.

398. Deputy S. Brady.—I should like to know what is the cause of the delay in a case where a person has had a period of employment in England and comes back here and then before he is in benefit again on the new stamps in this country he becomes seriously ill?—With the permission of the Committee perhaps the Controller will be allowed to answer that question.

Mr. Duffy.—The case referred to by the Deputy is that of a person who goes to England, works there and then returns to this country?

399. Deputy S. Brady.—Yes. After working in England that person returns to this country and resumes work here. After a certain period he becomes seriously ill. Cases have come to my notice where there has been very great delay in arranging for the payment of benefit. I do not know what is the cause of the delay but there is a definite delay in getting benefit.

Mr. Duffy.—There are cases, of course, in which delay must occur. A man goes over to England and he does not give the Society any information and does not surrender any British cards. He comes back at the end of six, twelve or eighteen months and the Society has to make inquiries and find out where he was and what contributions he made. That might cause some delay. There are other cases where men are transferred completely from Irish to British Insurance. If they come back sick they are still in British Insurance.

400. Deputy S. Brady.—I have in mind cases where they come back to this country and take up insurance with you again but before they are in benefit on your books they become ill. I take it that you would have in the meantime got all the information about their employment in England.

Mr. Duffy.—It is not automatic. We have to make inquiries about it. If a man sends in his stamped card while he is in England and remains with our society, then we have the information. But very often the men come back without stamped cards and tell us they left them in the job and it may be a moving job—construction work through the country. In that case it may take a year to find out the information and that is not the fault of the Society.

401. Deputy S. Brady.—Could the procedure be speeded up?

Mr. Duffy.—The only thing we could do would be to speed up the insured person’s compliance with the Act. Of course it is his duty to keep in touch with his Society.

Deputy S. Brady.—My information, in the case I am dealing with was that the man had complied but still the delay was very long.

402. Chairman.—If any case of undue delay came to our attention and we communicated the facts to you, you would have the matter investigated at once?

Mr. Duffy.—Yes. I might say that delay is almost inherent in some of these cases. I remember one case where an appeal was made and we had to invoke the English Department to make very prolonged inquiries from six different contractors with whom the man worked. The delay in that case was due entirely to the man’s failure to do what he should have done at the right time and it was not the fault of the Society. If you give me particulars of your case I shall have them inquired into.

Deputy S. Brady.—The particulars of the case I was concerned with were communicated directly to Mr. Henderson and he did everything he could but still there was serious delay. As a matter of fact the case is not fixed up yet and the man is home from hospital.

403. Chairman.—When a man stamps a card under the National Health Insurance Scheme in Great Britain and returns to Eire, and enters insurable employment here, what could he do in order to preserve continuity and permit the Society to grant him sickness benefit if he should become sick before he has the necessary number of insurance stamps on his card here?

Mr. Duffy.—The first thing is to surrender his card at the proper time if he remains in the Irish Society. If he stays in England for a period of one and a half years he has to be completely cut off from Ireland, and he has to join an English Society. If he comes back here the reverse process has to take place. These things cannot be done without some delay, but that does not account for the apparent delay in the case about which the Deputy speaks. In the normal case a man sends back his card, comes back to this country and stays for a while, and goes back again, but he keeps stamping his card and surrendering it to the Society. There is no reason for any great delay there.

404. Chairman.—Does he get benefit in this country as a result of his National Health Insurance payments in Great Britain?

Mr. Duffy.—So long as he remains in our Society he is credited with his contributions while in England.

405. Chairman.—If he regularly surrenders his card in Great Britain?

Mr. Duffy.—To us—he must surrender his card to this Society.

406. Chairman.—He should send the British card to Éire?

Mr. Duffy.—He must send his cards to our National Health Insurance Society. If he continues to remain in England he pays his premium to the Irish Society for a limited period, after which they say: “We have nothing more to do with you; you must join a British society and look to them for everything.”

407. Chairman.—Is it your experience that the bulk of Irish labourers in England are aware of their obligation to return their National Health Insurance cards from their English job to the Society in Dublin?

Mr. Duffy.—The bulk of them do; in fact, the Society issues a leaflet giving them instructions, but not all of them who get the leaflet will follow the information it gives. There is an indication on the card that it must be returned to the Society on the completion of the current period. I think the number of men who complain that they were not aware of what they should do is negligible.

408. Deputy S. Brady.—In the case of the man who works two years or more in England, and who ceases to be a member of your Society, who then comes back from England and takes up with your Society again, does he get benefit?

Mr. Duffy.—Not from us. If he has become a member of an English society, and if, after a while he comes back here, he cannot become a member of our Society until he takes up residence and works here. Merely to come back is not enough. If he belongs to the English society and he falls ill, they are statutorily entitled to decide whether he is permanently or temporarily resident in Ireland. If he is temporarily resident, the British society need pay him only for six months, unless they decide, exceptionally, to go further. If he is permanently resident here, they can refuse to pay.

409. Deputy S. Brady.—He cannot become a member of your Society until he takes up employment?

Mr. Duffy.—That is so.

410. Deputy S. Brady.—That may be the explanation of the position to which I have referred?

Mr. Duffy.—Yes.

411. Deputy Pattison.—Do they ask a workman to fill in any form—any questionnaire?

Mr. Duffy.—Do you mean the British Society?

412. Deputy Pattison.—A worker may come home, and they do not know whether he may be able to go back.

Mr. Duffy.—They do issue a form, but they do not do it arbitrarily. A lot of men indicate that they are permanent returns. For instance, a man may come back with T.B. and it might look as if he will remain at home for the rest of his life. Some of the English societies will pay him for six months, but others will say: “It is quite obvious you are going to live there permanently,” and he will be cut off.

413. Chairman.—In Great Britain the societies are not unified. One society will take up one attitude and others will take up other attitudes.

Mr. Duffy.—I imagine that when the social security scheme comes into operation they will be abolished.

414. Deputy Cosgrave.—In cases where an employer fails to stamp a card for the full period and the employee falls sick and the benefit is less than the maximum, has the employee any remedy? In the event of a prosecution, does the Society pay the difference to the employee?

Mr. Duffy.—I presume you mean a case where the employer has not stamped and ultimately he is compelled to stamp. Is that what you mean?

415. Deputy Cosgrave.—Is he compelled to pay the sum retrospectively?— Yes, he is compelled to pay up arrears, but that does not affect the position between the Society and the member. The member is still in arrears until a period of normally four weeks after the employer has stamped his card. You cannot ask an insurance company to pay on a fire policy if the premium is paid after a fire has broken out.

416. Is the employer obliged by law to stamp the card?—If he is liable and owing to his default in paying contributions the man has lost benefit, there are two courses open—the member can sue him himself, or the Minister may do so. It is not very often advisable for a man to sue his employer, as he might never get work again. Besides, he might be too poor, or there might be difficulties. If the Minister is satisfied about it, he has power to sue the employer for the loss of benefit.

417. And if his card is stamped regularly, he will get it?—If we get a decree, the Minister will send it to the insured person as a payment, but not by way of damages.

418. Deputy Pattison.—The Minister does not proceed without the permission of the insured?—I would hardly call it permission. Say “request”.

419. I think it is a weakness in the law that he should have to get the insured person’s consent in order to proceed against the employer. For that reason, there may be victimisation in future.

Chairman.—Mr. Duffy should not be drawn into a discussion on that, as it is not relevant to our proceedings. He is not responsible for the Act, but rather to see that the Act, whatever it is, is administered in accordance with the law.

420. Deputy Pattison.—On subhead H., I would like to know if the expenditure under this head has been justified. The activities of medical referees are extravagant. They go down the country pursuing a few people who may be permanent invalids in receipt of 7/6 a week.

421. Chairman.—Are you of opinion that the expenditure on the district medical referees’ service is really worth the expenditure? Would the funds of the Society not be as safe if no district medical referees were used at all?—I think they are essential to the proper conduct of the Society. Everyone in the world is not perfect, and people attempt to get money they may not be entitled to. If we had not these referees, the Society would have no protection against those cases, not exactly of fraud, but of easy claiming. They must have the medical referee to protect them. It is well worth it, although one might not be able to prove it arithmetically. It is of value from the deterrent point of view.

422. I understand that the subhead provides for the expenses of the insured person travelling to the rendezvous to the medical referee as well as the expenses of the medical referee for going to the rendezvous himself?—Yes, the travelling expenses.

VOTE 27—WIDOWS’ AND ORPHANS’ PENSIONS.

Mr. J. Hurson, called.

No question.

VOTE 41—LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND PUBLIC HEALTH.

Mr. J. Hurson, further examined.

“J. 3—Grants in connection with the Provision of Home Assistance in certain cases.

“34. As in the previons year, the estimate for this service indicated that the grants to public assistance authorities in respect of expenditure on home assistance paid to certain persons debarred from receipt of unemployment assistance by the operation of an Unemployment Assistance (Employment Period) Order would not in any event exceed 50 per cent. of the amount of unemployment assistance which but for the Order would be payable to each person assisted. As pointed out in paragraph 30 of my last report, it is not possible to obtain particulars of the rate of unemployment assistance applicable, and the period or periods for which it would have been payable, to each person assisted during the currency of an Order, and, in consequence, the claims of public assistance authorities for recoupment were again furnished on the basis of the amount paid as home assistance to each person, and the grants made were equivalent to 50 per cent. of the certified expenditure so incurred.”

423. Chairman.—Is there any comment you wish to make on that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—The claims of public assistance authorities for payment of these grants were again furnished on the same basis as in 1941-42. Following the examination of the accounts for that year, the Committee in its report recommended alteration of the conditions in future estimates so that the payments may be made in accordance with the altered terms. The estimate for 1944-45 has been suitably amended, and it will enable the Department of Local Government and Public Health, in making similar payments in that year, to comply with the estimate.

424. Chairman.—I take it, Mr. Hurson, that the improvement in the procedure recommended by the Committee has been put into operation at the earliest possible date?—Yes, but I might mention that the subhead is to be dropped. There is really no necessity for it. We provided originally £10,000, and I think the charge fell to somewhere about £3,000. With turf production and increased work in agriculture, there was no great necessity for the subhead, and in the present year the amount is purely a token sum.

425. Chairman.—I take it that the matter has been disposed of to the satisfaction of your office?

Mr. Maher.—Yes.

“J. 5—Grants towards the Supply of Fuel for Necessitous Families.

“35. A supplementary estimate was introduced to provide for payment, under approved schemes, of grants to local authorities towards the supply of fuel during the winter to necessitous families in urban districts. Under the approved schemes, which came into operation towards the end of 1942, a weekly allowance of one cwt. of fuel was made available for each family assisted. Public assistance authorities were required to meet the full cost of fuel supplied to persons in receipt of home assistance, and contributions varying from 6d. to 2/- per cwt. were required to be made by other recipients. The amount of the grant payable to each urban authority is based on the net expenditure incurred by it as certified by the Local Government Auditor. Only instalments of the grants were paid and charged to Vote in the year under review, and any balances found to be payable on the auditors’ certificates will be charged to a subsequent year.”

426. Chairman.—Is there any comment you wish to make on that?

Mr. Maher.—The paragraph is mainly explanatory of a new service. The scheme applies to families in receipt of home assistance, persons in receipt of unemployment assistance, who have dependants, old age pensioners and blind pensioners, widows, and other families with a low weekly income. The sums paid during the year represent instalments of the grants, and application for the final balances of grants found to be payable on the auditors’ certificates were made to the Department of Local Government in August, 1943.

427. Chairman.—Have you any comment on that, Mr. Hurson?

Mr. Hurson.—No, except to say that the audits will be completed to ascertain the final balances.

“Q. 1—Grants in respect of training of Native Irish Speakers in Midwifery.

“36. As noted in the account, the charge to this special subhead relates to grants made in respect of a course in midwifery for two nurses who had been trained in hospital nursing under the scheme for training of native Irish speakers provided for under Subhead Q.”

428. Chairman.—Perhaps it is right to take this occasion to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that this is one of the special subheads opened with the sanction of the Department of Finance in the financial year, and which did not come ad hoc before Dáil Éireann when the principal Estimate was being considered. Is it intended to maintain the scheme for the training of native speakers in midwifery?—Yes. The current year’s Estimate has been suitably amended to include training in midwifery. It is desirable, on account of appointments in the public health service, that we should have these nurses qualified to deal fully with all public health services.

429. Chairman.—There is a further note [Par. 37] by the Comptroller and Auditor General, which is a purely informative one dealing with the Motor Tax Account?

Mr. Maher.—The position is somewhat similar to that of last year. There were 12 in arrear then, but there are only seven now.

Mr. Hurson.—Those seven have since been audited.

430. Deputy S. Brady.—On Subhead G.3., what is the position with reference to milk supplies at present? It seems to be more difficult now to get clean milk than it was some years ago. There are several complaints recently about the conditions of our milk supply?—Throughout the country or in specific areas?

431. I can only speak for Dublin County. My information, whether accurate or not, is that the number of dairymen keeping T.B.-tested cows has greatly decreased within the last five or six years, for some reason, and that they are now getting their milk supplies from the country—generally from Wicklow—and that the condition of the milk has disimproved very considerably. In very many cases it is dirty. There are complaints that even the bottled milk contains cow dung and hairs of animals. That is a fairly general complaint. I was wondering about the cause of it, and it seems to be a recent development?—I have no knowledge of those conditions, and I am rather surprised to hear that they exist. Both in the city and the county the veterinary service is well organised. The milk supply to Dublin comes from what is called the Dublin Sale District, which, I think, includes Wicklow, Louth, Kildare, Dublin and possibly some other county. That milk supply is controlled by the Milk Board, and while it is delivered to the wholesalers here, and through the wholesalers to the various retailers, there is no evidence so far as I know that the conditions have deteriorated.

432. Do you know whether the number of T.B.-tested herds in the County Dublin has decreased or not within the last five years?—Not by more than two or three, as far as my recollection goes.

433. Is the system of inspection carried out as actively as heretofore?—It is.

434. Or is the transport problem affecting it in any way? I am trving to get at the cause?—Those who produce high-grade milk are confined to County Dublin. The milk which comes from the entire Sale District is not high-grade but ordinary milk that is collected and brought up to the wholesalers, who mostly have it pasteurised.

435. Have there been any prosecutions recently on dairymen for filling bottles on the roadside, which I understand is an offence? Is it a common practice at present in parts of County Dublin?— Where would the supply be coming from?

436. I could not say, only it has been reported from various sources that it is quite a common practice now and has been seen by various people. Dairymen fill bottles on the roadside and sell the milk as high-grade milk. I would like to know if there have been many prosecutions on that point?—Not to my knowledge. I would have to make inquiries. That would be a matter for the local veterinary service to investigate.

437. I was anxious to know if you had any recent prosecutions?—No, but I will make investigations, because the information is rather serious.

438. Deputy Dockrell.—I have seen bottles being filled on the road on which I live by dairymen?—Was that a transfer of milk from a dairyman with a milk-can to another dairyman with bottles?

Deputy Dockrell.—Yes.

439. Deputy S. Brady.—It was definitely stated to me that the bottles were not washed, and that the milk was quite filthy. One man was able to tell the dairyman, from the hairs on the cattle, the colour of his cows. He definitely stated on more than one occasion that he found particles of cow-dung in the bottle? —I have noted the Deputy’s information, so that I can have these matters investigated.

440. Deputy Cogan.—Is it not true that a considerable proportion of the milk supplied to the City of Dublin is collected from creameries in the southern counties? —Not except in the winter-time, when there is a shortage.

441. Is it not true that there has been a falling off in the supply, and that the supply area has had to be extended? That might account for some deterioration in the quality of the milk?—I would say that a shortage does not arise except in the month of February.

442. But the supply area has been enlarged. The County Carlow is now included in it, with the Counties of Wicklow, Meath, Kildare and Louth. That would indicate that the supply has been falling off, and may explain a deterioration in the quality of the milk. Is it not also true that some of the T.B.-tested herds had to be destroved owing to the foot-and-mouth disease?—That happened three years ago, and the position in that regard has been rectified.

443. Deputy Cosgrave.—Would the milk coming to the City of Dublin from the extended area be open to inspection? —It would, by the local authority. The extension only applied to certain creameries which were temporarily licensed to supply the Dublin District. That was, I think, in pursuance of an Emergency Powers Order and lasted only for about six weeks.

444. Chairman.—The Committee may take it that you will welcome any information which Deputies may be in a position to place before you, even if it is of a speculative nature, so that full inquiry may be made?—Yes, but I would like the information to be as definite as possible.

445. Well, even if the information be of a doubtful quality, would it not be better to have it placed before you for investigation rather than wait for definite proof which might be slow in forthcoming?—It will be examined as fully as possible.

Deputy Dockrell.—There is a widespread feeling amongst people—I do not know to what extent it would be borne out by a scientific analysis—that during certain periods of the year the cream or fat is drawn off the milk, and that as a consequence the public do not get the benefit of the rich milk during the period of the year when they should be getting it. In other words, during the winter time, when the milk is thin, people are told that it is thin because the grass is of poor quality; but when the summer comes there is no more cream on the milk than there was in the winter-time. Certainly, in the City and County of Dublin, people are very concerned about this question. They just do not know why they are getting poor milk, and feel that they ought to be getting a better quality of milk. I do not know if that is due to legislation, which is a matter that we cannot discuss here. Neither do I know if the complaint is due to the fact that there ought to be more inspectors or a more rigorous examination, but I do know that people are very dissatisfied. I can bear out what Deputy Brady has said.

446. Deputy Pattison.—I want to say about the country that, so far as milk supplies are concerned, there has been no supervision at all for some time past. It may be that the trouble is due to the fact that the inspectors cannot get an allowance of petrol. I can say, however, that in my county the position is very bad. The swopping of milk of all kinds is going on. I know, too, that in many areas people can get no milk at all, because there are no registered dairymen. The farmers cannot afford to equip their premises to meet the requirements of the Act. They are quite willing to do that, but they cannot afford to do it. For example, in Kells and Kilmanagh, in the County Kilkenny, children, and particularly the children of the poor, do not know what milk is.—I did not come fully prepared to deal with this matter, but I will say this, that there will be the fullest investigation of the views expressed here. I would welcome instances from Deputies as far as they can give them.

Deputy S. Brady.—Thank you.

447. Deputy Cosgrave.—On subhead O. —Treatment of Venereal Diseases—can you say if an increase in the number of cases treated has taken place, and if so, what the percentage increase has been since the beginning of the emergency?— For the year in question (1942-43), the increase in the numbers treated was about 500 throughout the country.

448. Would you say if the medical advisers are satisfied with the amount of money that is being expended on the treatment of this disease?—Yes. The amount of money provided can be exceeded if the need is there. So far as my information goes, the facilities provided have been adequate. They are being extended so far as the position in Dublin may show a need therefor.

449. Deputy S. Brady.—Are you able to give any indication as to whether the increase is due to the spread of the disease or to the number of people who are coming forward for treatment as a result of the propaganda carried out by the Department?—I would not like to say. That is a purely medical matter, and the increase is, I think, due to emergency conditions.

450. Chairman.—I understand that all persons applying for permits to Great Britain to take up employment there are obliged to produce certificates both as to their physical health and personal cleanliness before they are admitted to Great Britain, and that the facilities for that examination are provided by the Department of Industry and Commerce at centres in Dublin. Is there any corresponding test for persons returning from England: to submit to an examination as to the state of their physical health before landing in Éire?—I do not think so.

451. Have any suggestions been made to you that the incidence of venereal disease amongst persons returning to Éire is abnormal, or has the Department any information on the matter?—I am sorry, I cannot answer that at the moment.

452. Deputy Loughman.—Mr. Hurson has said there has been an increase of 500. Can he say what is the total number under treatment?—It was about 3,000 in the year 1942-43.

453. Chairman.—Does that figure represent attendances or individual cases? —I find that is the latest number of patients treated in the Dublin County Borough only.

454. How many patients were actually treated in Éire?—Two of the Dublin hospitals—Steevens’ Hospital and Sir Patrick Dun’s Hospital—cater for most of the country patients. Where there are approved schemes throughout the country, the local bodies have arrangements with these two hospitals in which cases can be treated. As regards cases treated by medical practitioners locally, I would not have particulars.

455. How many patients do you say were, in fact, treated?—The numbers treated might be repeat cases of treatment during the year. I would have to examine that question more carefully.

456. One has to differentiate between the number of attendances at a clinic and the number of individual cases. One patient, for example, might return 10 or 12 times to the clinic for treatment? —Each return would be regarded as an attendance.

457. Deputy Lydon.—Is there any record of the number attending doctors privately?—No.

458. So that your official figures would not be accurate in that respect?—They would not cover such cases.

459. Deputy S. Brady.—Can we be told as to whether the medical examination of people coming into this country has been discontinued? Up to some years ago there was some sort of a medical examination, but now I think there is none?—There was medical examination, but you could not make arrangements to have each person medically examined in the full sense. If you were to do that, you would need to have an enormous staff, very big accommodation, nurses, and so on. So far as my knowledge goes, each passenger was passed by two medical doctors. If there was an obvious case of illness, the person was detained. I do not think that an examination of that kind would reveal a disease such as we are speaking of now.

460. That is exactly my point. When a person comes off the boat at Dun Laoghaire he has to pass two medical officers. Is it not important that we should have a serious examination prior to passengers getting off the boat, such as, I understand, is done at this end in respect of people going across to the other side?—In the case of people going across to work in England, it was found that the bodily conditions—not their health conditions—required attention, and it was decided to provide adequate cleansing facilities here.

461. Chairman.—I think I am correct in saying that the medical examination in England for persons leaving this country had its origin in an effort by irresponsible persons to raise a scare that certain conditions in England were due to the arrival of Irish labourers, and that that resulted in a proposal in Great Britain that a medical examination should be conducted at the port of entry, that our Government very properly took the view that such an examination could be more appropriately conducted here, probably under very much better conditions, and that consequently an agreement was arrived at between the two Governments that the British Government would accept the certificate of our certifying authorities that emigrants left the country in a fit and proper condition?—At Dun Laoghaire. or wherever they embark, they have certificates to show that they have gone through the examination provided for in Dublin.

462. Deputy S. Brady.—I believe that from now onwards we should be more cautious about people returning to this country. It is most desirable that some steps should be taken to have this question investigated, as to the possibility of having a strict medical examination at the other side before people are allowed to embark for this country.

Chairman.—I know the Deputy will bear in mind that proposals which he thinks desirable for 1944-45 are not strictly relevant to the expenditure in 1942-43, and would be more properly raised in the Dáil rather than at this Committee.

463. In connection with Subhead P., Grant in Aid of Westmorland Lock Hospital, is that hospital subject to regular inspection?—Yes.

464. It has a controlling committee? Is it a lay committee?—There is a committee composed mainly of doctors.

465. They are not responsible to any public authority—No, Sir. This is called a Grant in Aid.

466. Your inspectors do from time to time inspect it?—Yes.

467. Are they satisfied that the care and attention devoted to patients are adequate and humane?—Yes.

468. Chairman.—I do not think it is necessary to emphasise that it is the kind of institution which it is peculiarly difficult to supervise, and one would imagine that it would be desirable to exercise special vigilance in connection with it, not for a moment suggesting that anything is amiss. I have no reason to believe that there is, but it is the kind of hospital which your inspectors would virtually be the only supervising authority. The class of patient going there would be peculiarly defenceless if there were any abuses.

469. Deputy Breslin.—Arising out of Subhead Q.—Grants in respect of training of native Irish speakers in hospital nursing—I understand these grants are given to the children of very poor parents in the Gaeltacht who otherwise would not be able to pay for the necessary tuition? —Yes.

470. The point I want to make is that the procedure apparently followed is that all the applicants from, say, County Donegal, are taken to a centre like Letterkenny, where they sit for an examination, written and oral. Later on they are segregated. Would it not be better if the means test were carried out first, because under the means test about 90 per cent. of the applicants who sit for the examination are disqualified? After sitting for the examination, these applicants were informed that because their parents were well off they were not eligible for the grant?—I do not think many applicants could have been rejected on the grounds of means.

471. There is a means test, and I find that a very big number are disqualified as a result of that test?—I have a memorandum on the matter here. It would take too long to read the whole of it, but I shall read out the portion dealing with conditions for eligibility. All the following conditions must be fulfilled: (a) The candidate must have been ordinarily resident in the Fíor-Gaeltacht during the previous fifteen years; (b) she must be a native speaker of Irish with a good oral and written knowledge of the language; (c) she must have at least sixth standard national school education; (d) she must be at least 18 years of age; (e) she must be of good physique and otherwise physically fit; (f) if State assistance to the maximum extent is sought, she must be able to show that her people are unable to defray any portion of the cost of her training; (g) if State assistance to a lesser extent than the maximum is sought, it must be proved that her people are unable to make any higher contribution than that proposed. There are few rejections on the question of means, but if they are able to make some contribution they are expected to do so.

472. Chairman.—Are these rules made by statute or by your Department?— They are part of the scheme for the selection of candidates.

473. Surely the whole purpose of the scheme is to get a number of native speakers trained as nurses?—Yes.

474. Deputy Breslin.—Why are these people allowed to go to the trouble of coming to a centre to sit for an examination and then rejected because of the means test? If a means test is to be applied they should be so informed before sitting for the examination?—Every person who applies for this grant gets a copy of this memorandum. I know the Deputy has got one.

Deputy Breslin.—That is right.

475. Chairman.—If we have a shortage of Irish-speaking nurses, as we appear to have, it would be very well worth while waiving the means test, limited as it may be in that scheme, for some years until such time as we had a sufficient number of Irish-speaking nurses.

476. Deputy S. Brady.—Your remarks would appear to be borne out by the note on page 127 to Subhead Q., which says that some of the girls selected for training failed to enter on training. Have you anything further to add to that?—I would say as regards the test that I am not aware that it has influenced the numbers at all.

477. Deputy B. Brady.—It has not influenced the numbers?—It has not come to my knowledge that it has.

478. Is there any explanation as to why a number of girls who were selected failed to enter for training?—I have inquired into the difficulties in the Department and I am told, firstly, that there is a lack of applicants. There were only 17 last year. The Department arranges to notify schools in the Gaeltacht areas, holders of Gaeltacht scholarships to secondary schools and members of the Dáil from Gaeltacht counties. Secondly, it is difficult to get applicants with a sufficient standard of general education. The applicants are first interviewed locally by inspectors of the Department of Local Government and Public Health and Department of Education and they ascertain their general standard of education. It is also stated that even when selected a number of the girls declined to accept the vacancies. Some prefer to take up domestic economy and others give no reason. This scheme has been operated by the Department as far as possible but it is not easy to get girls with what I might call the eighth standard national school education to satisfy the hospitals in Dublin.

479. Chairman.—Has it occurred to you that as there seems to be a lack of trained Irish-speaking nurses, you should waive the means test so as to allow girls in reasonably affluent circumstances to avail of this scheme and that in that way you would be much more likely to get a higher standard of education amongst applicants?—I do not believe that very many have been rejected on the ground of means. I would also suggest that girls who are in a position to pay for their training get trained as nurses in the ordinary way and that they should not come within the ambit of this Vote, even if they are Irish speakers. Girls from all over the country come to Dublin and are trained in the ordinary way. There are also many Irish speakers in Galway who pay for their training. In Galway Central Hospital, there is a number of Irish speakers in training who pay their full fees. I am inclined to think that every girl trained in Galway is an Irish speaker.

480. With regard to the point raised by Deputy Breslin, would you consider the possibility of determining the means test by applying it to individual applicants before the examination rather than afterwards?—The conditions are brought to the notice of applicants when they make application. I shall certainly make further inquiries to find out to what extent candidates are brought up for the oral examination and then rejected on the grounds of means but I am inclined to think that the number would be very small indeed.

481. Deputy S. Brady.—Could we be informed of approximately how many girls are required annually under the scheme?—There are about ten vacancies each year.

482. Deputy B. Brady.—A case was brought to my notice which occurred last year in which a girl satisfied the Department inspector as to her knowledge of Irish. As far as her general knowledge was concerned her qualifications were quite satisfactory and she got a call to the hospital in Galway. She was told to bring a medical certificate with her. The following day she got a notification to attend an interview in the Richmond Hospital in Dublin. For family reasons she was anxious to come to Dublin and she did not go to Galway. She came to Dublin to the Richmond Hospital and was interviewed by the Committee of that hospital. They, for some reason, decided that she was not suitable and the girl was turned down.

Mr. Hurson.—Did she not go to Galway?

483. Deputy B. Brady.—She felt that she had allowed the opportunity of going to Galway to slip. I was wondering whether it would be possible to provide for her under this year’s scheme.

Mr. Hurson.—Perhaps you could send me her name.

Deputy B. Brady.—I shall.

VOTE 42—GENERAL REGISTER OFFICE.

Mr. J. Hurson called.

No question.

The Committee adjourned.

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