Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1941 > Committee of Public Accounts > Interim and Final Report - Appropriation Accounts 1939 - 1940

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Ceadaoin, 2adh Iúl, 1941.

Wednesday, 2nd July, 1941.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY DILLON in the chair.

Mr. J. Maher (Roinn an Ard-Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste) and Mr. C. S. Almond, Mr. G. P. S. Hogan and Mr. L. M. Fitzgerald (Roinn Airgeadais) called and examined.

VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE REVENUE COMMISSIONERS.

Mr. W. D. Carey called and examined.

1058. Chairman.—There is a note here by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, which is as follows:—

Revenue Account.

“6. A test examination of the Revenue Account has been carried out with satisfactory results.”

Extra Statutory Repayments of Customs and Excise Duties.

“7. Licences for the importation of certain fruits and fruit pulps were issued to jam and confectionery manufacturers under section 14 (6) of the Finance Act, 1935. In view of the terms of Article 7 of the Trade Agreement concluded by the Governments of Éire and of the United Kingdom on the 25th April, 1938, the licences permitted the free importation of goods of United Kingdom or Canadian origin, and the admission at the reduced rate of 10 per cent. ad valorem of goods originating elsewhere. There was, however, no surplus of certain of the commodities for export from the United Kingdom to this country and in these circumstances the sanction of the Department of Finance was obtained for the extra statutory repayment of the duty paid by certain licensees who imported from countries other than the United Kingdom or Canada. The amount repaid under this authority was £346 6s. 1d.

Extra statutory repayment of Customs duties, amounting to £55 4s. 7d., was also made in similar circumstances, with the sanction of the Department of Finance, in respect of a quantity of concentrated apple juice of French origin imported at the reduced rate of 10 per cent. ad valorem under a licence issued under section 14 (6) of the Finance Act, 1935.

There is no statutory authority for the repayment of the excise duty on non-defective unused tyres returned to the manufacturer and general authority was obtained from the Department of Finance for the extra statutory repayment of duty on such tyres. The amount repaid under this authority in the year ended 31st March, 1940, was £267 3s. 5d.”

What are the circumstances set out in the third paragraph, regarding unused tyres, Mr. Carey?

Mr. Carey.—The position is this: the factory concerned—that is, the Dunlop Factory—found it desirable to recall certain tyres for examination. The practice is to get duty on the tyre when it leaves the factory. Apparently it would be found inconvenient to make a segregation in the case of tyres upon which duty had been paid already and which came back to the factory for examination. Accordingly, what is done is that when the tyre comes back to the factory, the duty is refunded, and then the tyre goes out as a new tyre and duty is paid on it. There are really three operations; first, the duty is paid, then refunded, and then paid again.

1059. What is the purpose of recalling these tyres?—I assume that it is because the factory may have some reason to suppose that the tyre may be defective, and recalls it for examination.

1060. Deputy Hughes.—What happens in the case of old tyres that are re-treaded?—I could not answer the Deputy as to that without inquiry.

1061. Are they liable to duty?—I do not think so except on the cost of repair. This is a question of the recalling of tyres for examination. I believe that the Dunlop Company do re-tread tyres in some cases, but I could not tell the Deputy offhand.

1062. I know that there are some small factories in the city here which re-tread tyres, and I was wondering whether they paid duty or not?—No, they would not be liable except on the cost of repair. For that reason it would be necessary to segregate tyres that go back to the factory simply for repair.

1063. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General’s report continues as follows:—

Remissions.

“8. I have been furnished with a schedule of the several cases involving a loss of £50 and upwards in which claims for duty or interest receivable under the Revenue Acts were remitted during the year ended 31st March, 1940, without statutory authority, from motives of compassion or equity arising out of particular circumstances in individual cases. The reasons given for remission appear to be satisfactory. The total amount shown in the schedule is £5,558 1s. 10d., as compared with £4,611 16s. 0d. in the preceding year. Of the total, £4,499 16s. 11d. has been remitted in respect of income-tax. £706 1s. 3d. related to three cases in which the assessed parties died insolvent or were destitute, and recovery was impossible; £3,737 1s. 8d. related to thirteen cases in which assessments were raised but subsequent evidence revealed no net liability to tax, and £56 14s 0d. related to a case in which an assessed company went into liquidation and there were no assets to meet the claim. The remissions also include sums in respect of estate, legacy and succession duties or interest on such duties amounting to £1,058 4s. 11d.

The above figures do not include duty passed as irrecoverable for various reasons.”

Do you care to add any comment to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—No. That is an annual paragraph setting out the remissions which the Revenue make, by arrangement with the Department of Finance.

Subhead Q—Losses by Default, Fraud and Accident.

“9. The charge to this subhead includes items amounting to £58 1s. 3d. in respect of three cases in which publicans’ licence duties were assessed on incorrect valuations. I understand that arrangements have been concluded between the Revenue Commissioners and the General Valuation Office with a view to preventing a recurrence of similar cases in the future.

The charge also includes sums totalling £134 18s. 4d. in respect of Customs duties under-collected. The commodities to which the duties related were imported at various dates between October, 1934, and November, 1938.”

1064. Have you any comment to make on that paragraph, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—We understood that the Commissioner of Valuation will now furnish more detailed information to the Revenue Commissioners

Mr. Carey.—This only happened in about three cases, and the actual loss was quite trivial. It was a case of incomplete information as to valuations, and a few years passed before the errors were discovered.

1065. Chairman.—With regard to Subhead S—Appropriations in Aid—do these Appropriations in Aid include the moneys realised for the sale of seized articles?

Mr. Carey.—The amount realised on the sale of articles of that description would be brought to account, in the first instance, as duty. If there were any surplus over that it would be brought to the account of Appropriations in Aid.

VOTE 7—OLD AGE PENSIONS.

Mr. W. D. Carey further examined.

1066. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General which deals with the excess vote with which we have already dealt on a previous occasion and which is now on the Order Paper of Dáil Eireann. The note is as follows:—

Excess of Expenditure over Grant.

“10. The account shows an excess of expenditure over the gross estimate of £67 6s 7d., and a surplus of Appropriations in Aid of £2,114 19s. 0d. The excess expenditure is explained by the Accounting Officer as due to the fact that the amount provided in the estimate to cover contingencies proved inadequate.”

With regard to subhead D—Appropriations in Aid—what is the policy of the Commissioners where they have paid out substantial sums as a result of the misrepresentation of claims?

Mr. Carey.—We take all possible steps to recover, if we can.

1067. What I was wondering is this: Suppose you found that a person, who was really very poor, owed you £70 or £80, how can you hope to recover that money?—Well, we do not waste money on legal expenses trying to get blood out of a stone. If it is obvious that we cannot recover the money, we let it go.

1068. Yes, I see. In other words, it is not customary to pursue such people and have them imprisoned, or anything of that kind?—The circumstances would have to be very exceptional, and you would have to have a clear case of fraud. Where poor people were concerned, I have never came across a case of such people being pursued by means of a prosecution.

VOTE 8-COMPENSATION BOUNTIES.

Mr. W. D. Carey further examined.

1069. Chairman.—As to note A— Bounties on sugar made from home-grown beet—what sugar receives a bounty now?—Home-grown sugar used in the manufacture of articles such as condensed milk and then exported. What is called the short price of the home-grown sugar is higher than the short price of the imported sugar.

1070. Deputy Hughes.—It is only the excise duty which is remitted? There is no bounty?—There is a bounty, otherwise the manufactured product would be at a disadvantage in a foreign market when exported

1071. Deputy Hughes.—What is the amount of the bounty?

Chairman.—15s. 2d. per cwt.

Mr. Carey.—It may very a little in future.

1072. Chairman.—I gather that the situation is that the price of imported sugar would be about 9s. 4d. per cwt. before duty was paid upon it, whereas the price of home-grown sugar works out at 24s. 6d. per cwt. before the excise duty is paid on it. Therefore, in order to put the person using home-grown sugar on an equal footing with the person using foreign sugar, a bounty of 15s. 2d. per cwt. is given to the manufacturer?—Quite, if the product is exported, of course.

1073. Deputy Benson.—As to Subhead B., there are three or four types of tobacco mentioned in this. Is it possible to divide that figure out between those three or four different types?—I have not the information at the moment.

1074. Deputy Breathnach.—Why is there a bounty on destroyed tobacco?

1075. Chairman.—I think I am correct in saying that the payment of a bounty on destroyed tobacco is a matter of Government policy?—Quite. I have some information here which might help in regard to those three categories you wanted. The quantity of home-grown tobacco manufactured and exported was negligible. It was expected that the quantity would be so small as to have practically no effect on the expenditure. The quantity of stalks and offal discarded as waste during 1939-40 in the process of manufacture weighed 37,685 lbs., and the bounty paid was £1,571 11s. 7d. The quantity of tobacco found unfit for manufacture and destroyed was 3,045 lbs, and the bounty paid was £126 17s. 5d. (section 23 of the Finance Act, 1938). The quantity of home-grown tobacco exported in an unmanufactured state in 1939-40 was 332,891 lbs. It represents the balance of 392,475 lbs., weight of such tobacco permitted to be exported, of which 59,584 lbs. weight were exported in the year 1938-39. We had this up on last year’s report in relation to the 59,584 lbs. What has gone out this year is the balance.

1076. What was the amount of bounty paid on that total export?—The bounty was £11,096 7s. 4d. on the 332,891 lbs.

1077. Deputy Benson.—That bounty was paid to the tobacco and cigarette manufacturers?—Yes.

1078. They having already bought the tobacco at a price which included the duty?—Yes.

1079. Chairman.—Do the tobacco manufacturers, claiming a bounty on the export of unmanufactured tobacco, have to produce to you any authority from any Minister or Department, or are they free to export any such tobacco and claim this bounty from you as of right?—You are talking now of the last category. Not only ourselves but the Department of Industry and Commerce would have to be satisfied.

1080. Before you authorise a refund of duty you must satisfy yourself that the Department of Industry and Commerce has permitted the export of this tobacco? —Yes.

1081. Deputy Hughes.—As to Subhead A. again, there is one point I should like to have cleared up. I do not know whether you are aware that we did not produce our full requirements in home-grown sugar last year. Does the manufacturer get a bounty if he uses foreign sugar?—No.

1082. How do you know whether it is Irish or foreign sugar he has used?—I have no doubt that the resources of the Departments are sufficient to enable that to be determined.

1083. I am very doubtful about it?— All the sugar is handled by the one company—the Sugar Company—and they are in a position to give us information. In addition, of course, we have our own officers.

1084. It would not matter very much in any case?—It would. The bounty is only payable in respect of sugar used in goods manufactured from Irish sugar and exported.

1085. If the manufacturer used foreign sugar it would leave an equal amount of Irish sugar for use at home?—That is not the object of the bounty.

1086. I do not see what you gain when we did not produce our own requirements last year?—I do not think the payment of a bounty has anything to do with the question of our own requirements.

1087. Chairman.—I think I am correct in saying that it is important not to confuse the bounty payable here with a rebate of excise duty. They are two distinct things. The bounty is designed to bring the short price of home-grown sugar into line with the short price of foreign sugar?—Precisely.

1088. It has no relation to the excise duty paid on either commodity?—It has nothing to do with excise duty.

1089. Deputy Hughes.—I am not questioning the excise duty. I am just asking, in view of the fact that we did not produce our own requirements in home-grown sugar, how you can control whether the manufacturer is using home grown or foreign sugar.

Chairman.—You cannot imagine Mr. Carey’s careful soul paying any man 15s. 2d. bounty on sugar which only cost 9s. 4d. per cwt. That would be simply a nervous breakdown on the part of Mr. Carey. I would not care to think that.

Witness withdrew.

VOTE 67—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.

Mr. J. P. Walshe called and examined.

1090. Chairman.—There is a note in the Comptroller and Auditor-General’s report:—

Exchequer Extra Receipts.

Fees for Passports, Visas, and Consular Services.

“86. I mentioned in paragraph 87 of my report on the accounts for the year 1934-35 that certain diplomatic and consular fees collected by the Department were not covered by statutory authority. The Diplomatic and Consular Fees Act, 1939, enacted on 13th December, 1939, empowers the Minister for External Affairs, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to make regulations fixing the fees to be charged. I am informed that regulations are under consideration, but none have yet been made.

Are you in a position to tell us when the regulations will be made?—We are actually making them at present. We have had considerable difficulty in collecting the necessary information from our people abroad owing to war exigencies. As you know, the post which normally took three or four days now takes four or five months, and it is difficult to enter into a long correspondence about such detailed matters through the telegraph. We are getting at them as fast as we can, and I think we shall be able to get them completed by the end of this year.

1091. Chairman—I suppose that would satisfy the Comptroller and Auditor-General?

Mr. Maher.—That is so.

Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General:—

Fees for Travel Permits.

“87. The issue of travel permits was introduced in September, 1939, as a measure necessary in existing circumstances for the control of passenger traffic between this country and Great Britain. A fee of 5s. is charged for each travel permit, with the sanction of the Department of Finance, and is collected and accounted for by means of a consular stamp or stamps affixed to each permit. The particulars furnished to me in connection with the permits issued at London, Glasgow and Liverpool are not sufficient to enable an effective check to be made of the correctness of the receipts brought to account, and I am in communication with the Accounting Officer on the matter.”

1092. Chairman.—Have you had any further correspondence, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—We recently had a communication from the Accounting Officer in which he gave the particulars we require. As regards the refund of travel permit fees, we understand it was not possible to obtain receipts in quite a number of cases, and we are satisfied with the explanation.

1093. Chairman.—Is there anything you care to add, Mr. Walshe?—No, Mr. Chairman.

1094. So long as peace has broken out between yourself and the Comptroller and Auditor-General, I think the Committee will be satisfied?—That is the principal thing.

1095. With regard to subhead A.9— Official Visit to United States of America—were these expenses preliminary to the Taoiseach going to America? —There was a certain amount of preliminary expenditure.

1096. I observe that £1,295 18s. 5d. was actually expended?—That is quite so. There was a certain amount of expense preliminary to the Taoiseach’s visit. We had to send out two officials to prepare the way. The visit was postponed only at the very last moment.

1097. How long were your officials in America?—They were quite a time—between five weeks and two months.

1098. The expenditure seems to be a little high for two officials for six weeks? —They had to do a good deal of travelling while they were in the United States. I think their stay was much longer than four or five weeks. They had to go to different parts of the United States to meet reception committees which were to receive the Taoiseach. If you like I shall give you a note* in regard to that matter.

1099. I would be glad if you could conveniently do so?—I shall.

1100. Do you make any provision for shipwrecked seamen under subhead B.5? —Repatriation of destitute Irish persons?—That provision is made by the Department of Industry and Commerce.

1101. And this relates to persons not eligible for relief under the Industry and Commerce subhead?—That is so.

VOTE 68—LEAGUE OF NATIONS.

Mr. J. P. Walshe further examined.

No question.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 65—ARMY.

Lieut.-General P. MacMahon called and examined.

Report of Comptroller and Auditor-General:—

“74. Following the declaration of a state of emergency on 3rd September, 1939, the Defence forces were mobilised. Steps were taken to increase the total strength, and new services were organised for coastal defence. A censorship service was set up under the newly created Office of the Minister for Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, and expenditure was also incurred in connection with the Offences against the State Acts. Financial provision was made for these new services and for increased expenditure under various other subheads by a supplementary estimate which was not passed until 5th March, 1940.

Owing to the non-delivery of stores on order, sufficient funds were available to meet this additional expenditure, and the increase in the original sum voted for the service of the Army was confined to a token vote of £10. The account shows that, including a surplus of appropriations in aid of £19,421 9s. 6d., the total surplus remaining to be surrendered is £326,599 6s. 2d., or 9.9 per cent. of the gross estimate.”

1102. Chairman.—Do you care to make any observation on that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—The object of this paragraph is to show the changes that took place in the Army service following the emergency, and how the expenditure was provided for.

1103. Chairman.—I think the Committee will take the view that in the exceptional circumstances in which you found yourself, General MacMahon, it was impossible to be as rigidly correct as your Department usually is in the matter of surrender; but the surrender of £326,599 6s 2d. is a matter on which you may care to say a word?—The heavy surrender was due to the non-delivery of stores, and, unfortunately, we had no control over that.

Report of Comptroller and Auditor-General:—

Subhead A—Pay of Officers, Cadets, N.C.O.’s and Men.

“75. The mobilization of all sections of the Reserve for permanent service is reflected in the increased expenditure on pay, allowances and provisions, and a saving on subhead Y.2., which bears only the normal expenses of the Reserve. With regard to the total strength of the Forces I have made inquiries concerning the question of compliance with the terms of sections 4 and 210 of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, 1923 to 1940.”

1104. Chairman.—Does the next paragraph relate to the same matter?

Mr. Maher.—They are really independent of each other, and it might be better to take them separately. The two sections referred to stipulate that the Defence forces shall consist of such numbers of officers, N.C.O.s and men as may from time to time be approved by the Oireachtas. Up to and including the year under review the maximum strength of the forces was detailed in Part 3 of the annual Estimates, and this was regarded by the Comptroller and Auditor-General as substantial compliance with the terms of the sections. During the emergency the strength shown in the original Estimate has been exceeded, but the supplementary Estimate taken in March, 1940, contained no reference to strengths. Hence we deemed it necessary to call attention to the matter in the report.

1105. Chairman.—Perhaps you could explain, General MacMahon, why no reference was made to strengths in accordance with the usual practice under the relevant sections of the Defence Forces Acts?—It was a matter of policy. The Minister decided not to give the information and the Government approved the Minister’s action.

1106. I take it this really falls within the general outline of the scheme to present the Army Estimates in the form of a block vote lest some strategic information be communicated to unauthorised persons?—That is correct.

1107. I think the Committee will take the view that that is a proper procedure for the time being. Will it be possible for the Comptroller and Auditor-General for the period of the emergency to accept those terms, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—I really feel that it is a matter for the Committee, because the statute is very explicit, and while we do not wish to pursue the point, we think the Committee should be fully aware of the fact that there is a statute which stipulates that this matter shall be controlled by the Oireachtas and that for reasons of public policy it is not possible to comply with the statute.

1108. Chairman.—Would it be possible, General MacMahon, to communicate confidentially, to the Comptroller and Auditor-General personally, the relevant figures?—Yes. I should like to mention that the accounts are kept on the usual basis for the information of the Comptroller and Auditor-General

1109. One must distinguish between that course and communicating the information to the Oireachtas in accordance with sections 4 and 210 of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts, but I think the Committee will probably take the view that the Army cannot reasonably be required to do that during the period of the emergency. I believe if the Committee were informed that the Comptroller and Auditor-General was kept advised, that would meet their views. However, we can consider these facts when we come to deal with our report?—You may take it that any information asked for by the Comptroller and Auditor-General will be given to him.

1110. Chairman.—The second part of paragraph 75 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is as follows:

“… A case came under notice in the course of audit in which, owing to non-observance of the relevant regulations the Department was obliged to admit liability for the pay of a soldier for a period during which he did not render any service. It appears that on surrender subsequent to desertion this soldier was admitted to a military hospital where he was maintained for nearly four months before he was discharged. He took legal action for the recovery of his pay for this period. The matter was referred to the Law Officers, who advised the Department that if it had been intended to withhold his pay, the soldier should have been courtmartialled on surrender, in accordance with the regulations, and that the manner in which this case was dealt with amounted to his temporary re-instatement in the Army. Consequently the claim, together with expenses, amounting in all to £36 11s. 9d., was paid with the sanction of the Department of Finance.”

Chairman.—Do you care to make any further observations, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—This is a nugatory payment, and we are calling attention to it. The legal advice obtained says that the whole flaw in this case is that if it was intended to stop this man’s pay he should be courtmartialled or discharged and not temporarily reinstated.

1111. Chairman.—Have you anything to say on this matter, General MacMahon?—This solider deserted and went to Spain with the Irish Brigade. On his return he was arrested. We urged that he be courtmartialled. The Adjutant-General wanted to courtmartial him, but on grounds of policy the Minister decided not to do so.

1112. I think the Minister was very well advised?—At any rate, he decided not to have the soldier courtmartialled.

1113. Deputy Keyes.—What was the period in respect of which the payment was made—was it subsequent to his return that he claimed this money?— When he returned he was ill and he went to hospital. We could not courtmartial him while he was ill. It was during the period he was in hospital he was paid.

Report of Comptroller and Auditor-General:—

Subhead B—Marriage Allowance.

“76. The overpayments written off under this head as irrecoverable, and included in the statement of loses (item 17), amounted to only £3 18s. 2d., and were due mostly to the late receipt from the military authorities of advices affecting these allowances in respect of the period subsequent to 1st September, 1939. In addition, a case was brought to light by the Gárda Síochána in which it transpired that, owing to a series of misrepresentations, marriage allowance had been irregularly issued over a period of about seven years, the amount involved being estimated at £376. It appears unlikely that the circumstances which rendered the issue of marriage allowance irregular would have been discovered in the normal course, as all the certificates required by the regulations had been furnished periodically and revealed no defect in their completion. The maximum deductions permitted by the Defence Forces Acts are being made from the pay of the soldier concerned in respect of the irregular payments. The case is not brought to notice in the account under review, as the amount of the net loss cannot yet be ascertained.

As approximately 28,000 payments are made monthly by the Department of Defence in respect of marriage allowance and Army pensions, on evidence furnished in periodical certificates similar to those referred to in the previous paragraph, it is a matter for consideration whether it would not be desirable to institute some kind of an independent check in a small number of cases on the accuracy of the information furnished in these certificates, and I have inquired accordingly.”

1114. Chairman.—Have you received any rejoinder to that inquiry, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—This matter is not yet completed. The point we wish to stress is that the quarterly certificates do not afford adequate protection. The persons attesting simply declare they believe the persons signing to be the grantees, but they do not vouch for the accuracy of the statement.

1115. Chairman.—Do you believe that it would be desirable to have a test check in a percentage of cases in future?—No. I believe, if it could be done, it would be advisable to have a 100 per cent, check. I do not believe in a test check if you could not have 100 per cent check. We approached the Revenue Commissioners to know if they could carry out a check and they refused. We then approached the Gárda Síochána, and they indicated that they could not make inquiries unless there were conditions of fraud present, so they cannot help. We believe that if a staff were appointed to carry out a 100 per cent. check it would be found to be very expensive—much more expensive than it would be worth. We actually put the position to the Department of Finance, asking if they could suggest a greater safeguard than we have. They have not yet suggested one. In connection with this particular case that Mr. Maher has drawn attention to, I think I am pretty safe in saying that if that case was investigated by anybody prior to this, including everyone in this room, it could not be discovered while this soldier’s wife was so accommodating. The position was that the second woman lived in the same house with the wife, and the wife signed the certificate and gave everyone to understand that the other woman’s children were her children. No matter who examined the case prior to a row between the two women, I believe he could not discover the fraud in the circumstances. The birth certificate of the children was in the name of the wife.

1116. Chairman.—A very extraordinary case, and I agree that no one could have detected it in the circumstances. Has the Department of Finance any views on the desirability of a check here?

Mr. Almond.—We think a check is very desirable, and we took the matter up with the Department of Defence following the particular case mentioned in the paragraph, but as a result of inquiries which the Department made from the Revenue Commissioners and the Gárda Síochána we are disposed to think now that any kind of investigation would be altogether too expensive having regard to the amount of money involved, and, further, that we could not be definitely sure that all cases of fraud or collusion would be detected, no matter what kind of check was arranged. Although we have not definitely dropped the matter, our impression at the moment is that it would not be worth while carrying out a complete check in all these cases. It would certainly involve very heavy expenditure.

1117. Chairman.—Do you take the view that a test check is not desirable, and that unless there was 100 per cent, check it would be as well not to have any check at all?

Mr. Almond.—A test check might be all right if cases of fraud were evenly distributed. I have the feeling that you might take a test check of 5 per cent. of the cases and discover no case of fraud, whereas if you took a 100 per cent, check you might discover some cases.

1118. Chairman.—Do you not think that the fact of a test check might prevent attempted fraud?

Mr. Almond.—I do not think so. The investigation would be only in the case of particular individuals.

1119. Deputy Keyes.—What is the status of those who signed the declaration form?

1120. Chairman.—I understand that those who are authorised to sign the forms declare that they were signed in the guarantor’s presence by the person whom they believed to be the grantees. They include postmasters, postmistresses, headmasters, head teachers of national and secondary schools, secretaries of friendly societies, district justices and peace commissioners, commissioners for oaths, ministers of religion, physicians and surgeons, managers, secretaries, chief cashiers and accountants of banks, actuaries and secretaries of savings banks, police officers. I might mention that the majority of the people who signed are clergymen.

1121. Chairman.—In this case, which was exceptional, I understand the form was signed by a bank official.

1122. Deputy Allen.—Would it not be well to limit the number of persons who could sign the form by confining it to clergymen and police officers?

1123. Chairman.—Am I not correct in saying that the list applies to a wide variety of departmental forms?

Mr. Maher.—That is so. It applies to State and civilian pensions as well as to marriage allowance.

Deputy Keyes.—It might be well if the list of those who could sign was limited.

1124. Chairman.—I take it that the Comptroller and Auditor-General did not believe that that condition would be useful or would serve any useful purpose.

Mr. Maher.—That is the position. Under the system we believe there is a weakness, and whether it is possible to find a solution is a matter for consideration later.

Witness.—I agree with Mr. Maher that there is a weakness, but the remedy is too expensive and in my opinion would not be justified.

Deputy Hogan.—If the list was limited to the Gárda Síochána I believe people would be less inclined to attempt fraud. I believe the Gárda Síochána to be the proper body to deal with the matter.

1125. Chairman.—Perhaps that suggestion will be considered so that authority should be confined to Civic Guard officers, or perhaps sergeants?—I am afraid you could not go lower in rank than sergeant. I do not think the Guards will undertake the work, but we will ask them.

1126. Deputy Hughes.—Why should not the Guards be asked to certify in these cases?

1127. Chairman.—That is the suggestion?—I do not think you could ask Guards to do it.

Deputy Cole.—There would not be so many cases.

Deputy Allen.—30,000.

1128. Chairman.—Unfortunately soldiers do not have families all at the same time. And they move from one district to another.

1129. Chairman.—I take it that the matter will be considered.

Mr. Almond.—In every case where there is fraud we ask that the papers be forwarded to the Chief State Solicitor, with a view to prosecution. We think that prosecution is a greater deterrent than investigation, because the case is published in the papers. I am afraid, however, that in some cases the courts are not very helpful.

1130. Deputy Hughes.—I suggest that the form that is used should be drawn as a certificate so that it will involve the making of some inquiries?

Witness.—If a Deputy were asked to certify, would he do so? I do not think he would.

1131. Deputy Hughes.—Within certain limits it should be so drawn that some inquiries would be made?—And if payment was delayed there would be a question in the Dáil, and it might be a serious matter for a postmaster, who might have to pay any loss that would arise in such cases. I do not believe that you would get anyone to certify in the way suggested.

1132. Deputy Hughes.—The certificate should not be absolute, but should involve some inquiries?

1133. Chairman.—Would it not be the same position as that of a friend who asks a person to recommend him to a bank manager, but who would think a little longer if presented with a blank bill and asked to sign it? Many men are prepared to introduce a friend to a bank manager, but very few will sign a bill?—That is the position.

1134. Chairman.—The next paragraph of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads:—

Subhead J—Mechanical Transport.

“77. Owing to the urgent need for additional mechanical transport to meet the requirements of the Forces mobilized in September, 1939, and the inadequacy of the available supplies, it was not found possible to confine purchases to the standard types of vehicles already in use in the Army, or to follow the normal procedure relating to purchases. A large number of vehicles of various makes were, however, acquired by personal negotiation at prices varying between 15 and 20 per cent. less than the list prices.”

Mr. Maher.—In this case there was a departure from the normal practice, but that was rendered necessary by the emergency.

1135. Chairman.—You have no reason to believe that there was any grossly imprudent expenditure?

Mr. Maher.—No.

1136. Deputy Hughes.—On the whole, did these vehicles prove to be good value? —Yes.

1137. And were in good condition?— The reason we did this was to save the trouble of carrying spares of different types of cars. It was much more convenient to have the same types of lorries, but when we could not get these we had to take other makes. The others are just as good, but it means that we have to carry more spare parts.

1138. Does that apply to the second-hand vehicles?—It applies to new and second-hand types.

1139. Did you purchase a number of second-hand vehicles?—We purchased some; not many.

1140. Were they in good condition?— Yes, they were carefully examined by experts before we purchased them.

Chairman.—The next paragraph in the report reads:—

Subhead K—Provisions and Allowances in lieu.

“78. Statements have been furnished to me showing the cost of production of bread at the Curragh Bakery, and of meat at the Dublin and Curragh abattoirs. The unit costs are as follows:—

The decrease in the unit cost of bread is due to (a) increased production, and (b) a decrease in the average price of flour as compared with the previous year.

The average prices of cattle purchased for the Dublin and Curragh areas were £24 4s. 1d. and £23 0s. 6d. per head, respectively, as compared with £21 16s. 10d. and £19 13s. 3d. in the previous year, while the average production of beef per head was 724 lbs. and 686 lbs., respectively, as compared with 761 lbs. and 688 lbs.

Subhead P—Warlike Stores.

“79. Initial payments amounting to £44,000 were made in the year under review on contracts with Continental firms for the supply of warlike stores, the delivery of which is overdue. As delivery is not expected under existing conditions, it has been deemed advisable to relieve the vote of the amounts advanced until such time as the position is clarified, and they have been transferred to a suspense account. Delivery of a considerable quantity of stores from other external sources of supply is also awaited, but payments made on foot of the orders for these stores are charged to the vote in accordance with normal practice.”

1141. Chairman.—The total amount in the suspense account is £44,000. Surely there is no reason for keeping that item in the suspense account?—We have to keep it in the suspense account until we get the articles or a refund.

1142. Is it not possible to get this money back from the persons to whom it was advanced?—Not yet.

1143. Have none of the countries to which the money was advanced any balances in this country which could be called upon to make up the refund?—No.

1144. Has that possibility been investigated?—The two countries involved are Sweden and France, and if there were any funds here belonging to citizens of either of these countries I do not think we could foreclose on them.

1145. Chairman.—Has the Department of Finance considered the possibility of recovering this money in that way?

Mr. Almond.—We did not advert to that at all. I do not think it would be possible.

Witness.—I do not think it would be possible, according to the terms of the contracts.

Mr. Almond.—I may say that in connection with about half the total money involved we have bank guarantees, but there are restrictions on the export of money at present in the countries concerned.

1146. Chairman.—I take it that there are no means of persuading these countries to relax the regulations to allow their balances here to be drawn on.

Mr. Almond.—I expect they take the view that when the present crisis is over they will deliver the goods.

1147. Chairman.—It will be something like delivering the cradle when the infant reaches 21 years?—This may not be the last great war—the final one.

Chairman.—God forbid that we should have another one.

1148. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General’s report continues:—

Subhead P 1—Protection of Civil Population against Air and Gas Attack.

“80. The charge to this subhead includes a sum of £11,000, being the first payment of grant under section 35 of the Air-raid Precautions Act, 1939, to a local authority, towards expenditure incurred on approved air raid precautions schemes. The grant is based on 50 per cent. of the certified expenditure of the local authority on approved schemes to the 31st March, 1939.

The remainder of the expenditure was incurred on the purchase of air raid precautions stores, including fire-fighting equipment, protective clothing and respirators. The stores are being issued on loan to local authorities in the scheduled areas for distribution to the public or retention in accordance with the directions of the Minister for Defence. The safe custody, storage, and maintenance of the stores so issued are provided for in the Air Raid Precautions Equipment (Storage and Loan) Regulations, 1940 (Statutory Rules and Orders, No. 184 of 1940), and I understand that the Department is making arrangements to ensure the due observance of these regulations.”

Have arrangements been made for the due observance of these regulations?— Yes.

1149. And you are satisfied, on the whole, that these supplies are being reasonably looked after?—Yes, we are,

1150. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has the following note:

Subhead S—Barrack Maintenance and Minor Works.

“81. Owing to unstable conditions, and the limited stocks on offer, difficulty was experienced in procuring bulk supplies for the services provided for under this subhead, and it was found necessary in many instances to depart from the normal methods of effecting purchases.

Regarding contracts for official works one case came to notice in which the selected contractor for certain urgent work was unable to obtain the necessary material, and the Department, after negotiating with the trade concerned, undertook to supply and deliver to him material sufficient to complete the work. The ensuing modifications of the contract left the Department’s liability thereunder somewhat uncertain. As it seems, however, that the procedure adopted involved the Department in considerable expense in addition to the agreed price of the work, I have sought information on certain aspects of this contract.”

Have you received any further information with regard to this, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—Yes, we understand that the net cost of the houses was about £17,453. The original tender was about £15,665, so that there was a fairly big difference, brought about by the normal practice not being followed. We understand that the Army authorities have a very good reason for departing from the normal practice in this case owing to the position of the contractor.

1151. Has the Accounting Officer any further information to give the Committee about the case in question?—The overriding consideration in connection with this contract was the time element. At this particular period the detention barracks were full. The Guards had arrested a large number of men, and the Department of Justice informed us that other men were to be arrested. We had instructions to get this camp erected at the earliest possible moment. As a matter of fact, the Department is very pleased with this particular job—first, because they had the camp erected in record time, and, secondly, in that we got the job completed at what we think was a very cheap price. The original tender was £175 less than the next lowest tender. We knew at the time that the person who put in the next lowest tender was not in a position to carry out the contract. In actual fact, the job was completed at £2,000 less than the offer made by the next contractor in a position to carry out the job. I agree that we did not follow the normal procedure. If we had done so the work would have had to go out for tender again, and at least a fortnight’s time would be wasted. At every stage we consulted the Department of Finance, and had their approval for every step we took.

1152. Deputy Hughes.—How did the lowest tender compare with your estimate—I presume you had an estimate?— It was 4½ per cent. higher than the original estimate.

1153. Was the cost of the work within the estimate?—It was 4½ per cent. higher than the actual estimate. It was, in actual fact, £2,000 lower than the offer of the next contractor in a position to do the work.

Chairman.—What, I think, Deputy Hughes is suggesting to the Accounting Officer is that the Army authorities probably made a costings estimate themselves as to what they expected the job to cost.

1154. Deputy Hughes.—What I understand from the Accounting Officer is that tenders were invited without an estimate being prepared?—Exactly. We told intending contractors the work that was to be done, and they sent in quotations. They were simply given bills of quantities.

1155. Chairman.—The procedure was that you gave them bills of quantities, which the intending contractors submitted to their costing experts. They prepared their estimates on the basis of their costing experts’ recommendations. You have no costing experts of your own?—Yes, we have for ordinary work. In the case of a big job we ask various people to tender.

1156. Deputy Hughes.—You have no check then on your tenders at all. Would it not be good business for the Army to have their own experts to make out an estimate of probable cost?—Our engineering officers check all proposals sent in.

1157. Before accepting a tender would it not be well to have that information before you?—They do that.

1158. Chairman.—Is it not correct to say that tenders of this kind are submitted to the Government Contracts Committee, which reviews them from the point of view of costings to ascertain if they are within a reasonable distance of a correct costing estimate?—That is so. With regard to the point raised by Deputy Hughes, the director of engineering before recommending which tender he thinks should be accepted examines all of them very carefully.

1159. There is, in fact, a Government Contracts Committee. Every contract for stores exceeding £1,000 in value is, I understand, submitted to that Committee and examined by it quite independently of the Department primarily concerned in placing the contract?—That is so.

1160. Chairman—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has the following note:

Subhead Y 2—Army Reserve.

“82. The annual grants payable to Class A. reservists which had been paid in two instalments up to 1938 were subsequently paid in full on completion of annual training, with the concurrence of the Department of Finance. A number of Reserve units had completed annual training, and the personnel had received the grants in full before they were called out on permanent service in September, 1939. Certain other members of the Forces who had been transferred to the Reserve before this date had also received the full portion of the annual grants. As a result the men concerned were overpaid in respect of that part of the year spent on permanent service. It was not deemed desirable, for various reasons, to collect these overpayments by deduction from their pay and allowances, and recovery was waived with the consent of the Department of Finance. The amount involved, £6,783 12s. 9d., has been charged to this subhead.

Certain units of the Reserve which had been called up for annual training in August, 1939, were retained on permanent service. The personnel of these units had been issued with travelling warrants in respect of the return journeys between their homes and the training centres, but the return portions of the tickets were not used. Some of these were surrendered and the appropriate credit was received from the railway companies. It was noted in the course of audit, however, that in many cases no credit had been obtained. The amount involved would appear to be considerable, and I have made inquiries regarding these cases.”

Have you received any reply, Mr. Maher, to your inquiries regarding these railway cases?

Mr. Maher.—We have been informed by the Accounting Officer that over £850 has been collected, and that recovery is proceeding. That sum of £850 applies to over 2,000 cases.

General MacMahon.—At the moment only £40 is outstanding, representing 150 tickets.

1161. Chairman.—And they are being pursued?—Yes.

1162. Chairman.—Note 82 in the Comptroller and Auditor-General’s report goes on to say:—

“… The Public Accounts Committee in its reports on the accounts for the years 1936-37 and 1937-38 referred to the necessity for more effective control over expenditure incurred on the Volunteer Force. Certain alterations have since been made in the basis of organisation of the Force, and they became effective as from the beginning of the year under review. The withdrawal of the Volunteer’s right to resign on giving seven days’ notice has ensured a definite term of service; and the payment of the maximum annual grants, which vary from £6 in the case of a private to £75 in the case of a commandant, was made dependent on the proficiency shown by both the Volunteer and the Sluagh to which he belonged.”

I take it that these revised regulations meet with the recommendations which the Committee made?

Mr. Maher.—Yes.

1163. Chairman.—The following is the concluding paragraph in the Comptroller and Auditor-General’s note 82 to this subhead:—

“… Consequent on the mobilisation of the Volunteer Force in September, 1939, the activities of the Sluaighte ceased and the halls which had been rented for their use throughout the country became surplus to requirements at the same time, but no decision to surrender these halls was taken until July, 1940. It appears from papers submitted to me, that this decision had to await the consideration of certain proposals regarding the future of the Volunteer Force. These proposals, which have been approved but have not yet been incorporated in a regulation, render the further use of halls unnecessary, provide for a more satisfactory method of safeguading clothing and equipment on issue to the Force, and should effect considerable economies in transport and training.”

Have the necessary regulations yet been made?

General MacMahon.—Yes.

1164. Chairman.—I take it that disposes of that paragraph.

Mr. Maher.—Yes. We understand that no halls are being rented now.

1165. Chairman.—Have all the rented halls been given up?

General MacMahon.—Yes, and the others are being fully used by the Local Defence Force, the Local Security Force, and, occasionally, by the Red Cross.

1166. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has the following note:—

Subhead Z—Appropriations in Aid.

“83. The collection of rents from the tenanted property at Lough Swilly and Bere Island, acquired under Article 2 of the Agreement between the Governments of Éire and the United Kingdom, signed on 25th April, 1938, had been considerably in arrear at the date of transfer. Difficulties arose in connection with the collection of these arrears and it was finally decided to waive all rents due and accrued to 30th September, 1938. The sum involved (£219 17s. 0d.) is shown in the Statement of Losses (Item 14). An amicable arrangement has been come to with the tenants and the collection of current rents is satisfactory.”

Have you anything to add to that, Mr. Maher?

Mr. Maher.—No.

1167. Chairman.—What about the gentleman who used to keep his sheep on Spike Island? He kept sheep on the island during the time the British occupied it and, I understand, also benefited from his contract to carry certain supplies from the pier to the barracks. When we took over, we declined to continue the carrying arrangements, and he withdrew the sheep from Spike Island. Has anything since transpired in regard to that, or are there any sheep on Spike Island now?

General MacMahon.—No.

Chairman.—I lament the passing of the Spike Island mutton. I think I told the Committee before that I had the taste of it once when I was the guest of the Army on Spike Island, and greatly enjoyed it.

1168. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has the following note on stores:—

Stores.

“84. A test examination of the store accounts for the accounting year ended 30th September, 1939, was carried out. The results were generally satisfactory, but some units did not find it possible to carry out the complete stocktaking required by regulations owing to the abnormal conditions prevailing at the end of the accounting year.

For the same reason certain checks, required by regulation, of stores held by the Corps of Engineers have been temporarily omitted with the consent of the Department of Finance, but inspections have been carried out by the departmental audit staff. I have inquired whether the system of accounting for these stores at present in operation provides adequate safeguards having regard to the altered conditions and the increase in stocks.”

Mr. Maher.—This matter is still under discussion with the Army authorities. We understand that arrangements have been made for the appointment of a special inspection officer who will be engaged whole-time on checking and inspecting engineers’ stores. We are still discussing the matter with the Accounting Officer.

General MacMahon.—He is actually functioning now.

1169. Chairman.—Are you satisfied, Mr. Maher, that a satisfactory and effective method of checking is now in operation?

Mr. Maher.—Inspection work has to be greatly curtailed by reason of the pressure at the moment on Army personnel, but probably we will be able to report on the position in the next Audit Office report.

1170. Chairman.—I take it that the Army authorities are alive to the dangers inherent in the vastly increased stores which have to be dealt with during the emergency period?

General MacMahon.—As a matter of fact, we have our own civilian staff out all the time on audit work.

1171. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has the following note:—

Statement of Losses.

“85. Losses written off during the year are detailed in a statement appended to the account The total is made up of:—

The corresponding figures of losses in the previous year were £1,184 6s. 2d. and £1,456 13s. 6.”

So that the losses were substantially less in the year under review than in the previous year?

Mr. Maher.—Yes Of course, they are subject to periodical fluctuations.

1172. Chairman.—The concluding portion of paragraph 85 in the Comptroller and Auditor-General’s note reads:

“In previous reports I referred to the losses which arose in keeping members of the Volunteer Force provided with uniform, and the above figures include a sum of £139 17s. 2d. in respect of unrecovered amounts due for articles of clothing issued to Volunteers on repayment on the occasion of special parades, and also £69 6s. 2d in respect of issues on other occasions.

The figures also include a sum of £217 7s. 0d. in respect of services rendered to the Irish Aero Club, Limited, which went into liquidation. The total value of services rendered amounted to £259 10s. 5d., but a sum of £42 3s. 5d., representing a final dividend of 3s. 3d. in the £ was received and brought to account.”

Have you anything to say, Mr. Maher, about this item relating to the Irish Aero Club?

Mr. Maher.—The Irish Aero Club went into liquidation. This matter was previously discussed by the Committee when dealing with the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce, under which there was a similar loss.

1173. Chairman.—And I take it that similar considerations apply here?

Mr. Maher.—Yes.

Chairman.—I think we may now turn to the subheads.

1174. Deputy Brady.—On Subhead B— Marriage Allowance—I think it is correct to say that in the case of an officer the marriage allowance is paid direct to him, while in the case of an N.C.O. it goes to his wife and family.

General MacMahon.—Yes.

1175. I had a case brought to my notice of an officer who got the marriage allowance and did not show very much consideration for his wife and children. During the time he was in the Army the family were living in a state of starvation. Why not, in both cases, send the marriage allowance to the man’s wife— to the officer’s wife as well as to the N.C.O.’s?—If the circumstances of that case to which the Deputy referred were brought to the notice of the Adjutant-General, I do not think that officer would be in the Army very long.

Deputy Brady.—He has been out of the Army now for six or eight months.

1176. Chairman.—Do the same regulations govern marriage allowances and separation allowances?—In the case of officers there is a lodging, fuel and light allowance. In the case of N.C.O.s there is what is called a marriage allowance. Under the Act as it is at the moment we have to pay lodging, fuel and light allowance to officers. Of course that could be altered if it was thought necessary to do so. I should say that the Army would not retain in its service an officer who treated his wife and family in the way described by Deputy Brady.

1177. Chairman.—With reference to Subhead I—Conveyance of Stores and Subhead J—Mechanical Transport, has your attention been directed to certain criticism made of the use of Army lorries and to the suggestion that lorries consume quantities of petrol on, apparently, unnecessary journeys?—Yes.

1178. Are any steps being taken to check up on the reasons for these journeys?—We have had this matter under close observation since the beginning of the emergency and even before that. We are satisfied that these criticisms are not justified. In the case of the Army, it is quite impossible to ensure that, when using a lorry, you will have a load each way. In the case of a tramp steamer, you try to do that but a lorry in the service of the Army has to deliver a load at a certain place and it is unusual to have a load coming back. When people see the lorry coming back empty, they think that those in charge of it have been joy-riding. Even Deputy McGilligan admitted in the Dáil that he did not see many soldiers in the lorries of which he complained. The Quartermaster-General is very strict in these matters. He sees that cars and lorries are used only when necessary. When it comes to a question of training, that is a technical matter and the Accounting Officer cannot butt in. A good deal of petrol is used during training but, if soldiers are not trained to this work in peace-time, they will not be able to use the vehicles to full advantage in wartime.

1179. Would you consider it expedient to have a check at reasonable intervals under which authorised persons would stop military lorries proceeding in certain areas and inquire of the officer in charge of the lorry the purpose of the journey?— Nobody could do that except an Army officer. If a civilian were to set out to hold up a lorry, there would be trouble. The duty orders are checked by the transport officers and we also carry out a check. Our check is up to date. The soldier, when going out of barracks, has to produce his authority to go out and has to show that he is going on a particular job. The transport officer knows that that particular job may cover 15 or 20 miles. If he finds that the vehicle has covered 30 or 40 miles, he wants to know all about it. There is a very strict check and I do not think that petrol is being wasted. If we saw a duty order that we thought was in any way suspicious, we would have the matter investigated right away.

1180. Are you entirely satisfied that no military lorry can be on the roads without a duty order?—There have been one or two cases in which there was no duty order but the parties concerned were brought to account and punished. That could happen in a small outpost but not in any of the regular barracks. The driver has to show his duty order when going out. If a lorry were attached to a small encampment, it would not be possible to do that, but any offences are very severely dealt with.

1181. Deputy Hughes.—Where it is possible to make use of the railway, do you try to conserve supplies of petrol by using the railway?—The director of transport has to satisfy himself that goods are brought by the cheapest method. If rail is cheaper than road transport, he has the goods sent by rail. There are, of course, certain places where rail could not be used.

1182. You are satisfied that there is no undue wastage of petrol?—Yes.

1183. Chairman.—Has the Department adverted to the fact that, whereas in peace-time, the proper test is one of expense, during an emergency it might be justifiable to use a method of conveyance which would economise the use of petrol even though the financial expense was greater?—If goods were going to Kildare, we would send them by rail even though the expense was somewhat greater than it would be to send them by road. If the goods were going to the Curragh, we would not send them by rail because we would have to send out lorries to Newbridge or Kildare to collect them.

1184. Deputy Hughes.—Would it not save petrol to send them by rail even there?—They would have to be loaded in Dublin and unloaded and loaded again at Newbridge or Kildare. Petrol would be used in sending out to collect them.

1185. Chairman.—I do not think that we can ask General MacMahon to discuss each case but, broadly speaking, we are assured that rail is used, when practicable?—Rail is used extensively at present. When troops are out on training, the Accounting Officer has no say as to the quantity of petrol which should be consumed. We are satisfied, however, that no petrol is used on these occasions in joy-riding. It is for the Chief of Staff to say how much training is to be done.

1186. In connection with Subhead P 2— Marine Coast Watching Service, are you satisfied that the personnel of that service is chosen for experience and capacity for the work of marine coast watching?— They were selected by officers of the coast watching service.

1187. Locally?—Yes.

1188. Are you satisfied that the men so chosen are suitable for that class of work and are efficiently discharging their duties?—I have to accept a certificate for that.

1189. Is there any supervision or any attempt to check up on the effectiveness of the service?—There is very close supervision and we get daily reports from them.

1190. Have any reports reached you that some of the men are not efficient or are not equipped by their experience for the work to which they have been allocated?—Quite a number of them were changed because they proved unsuitable.

1191. May we take it that their efficiency is kept under constant review? —It is.

1192. As regards Subhead V 1—Contribution to Welfare Funds (Grant-in-Aid), your expenditure is on a very modest scale. Is there any other source from which these welfare funds derive finance? —This is a small Grant-in-Aid and there is a number of other means of augmenting the funds.

1193. Are you satisfied that the welfare funds are sufficient for the purposes for which they are required?—I think they are. They have a good deal of cash in hands. They get a rebate in respect of all canteens and that is a very good source of revenue.

1194. As regards Y 4—Payments to Secretaries of Sluaighte, are these secretaries still in employment?—No. They have disappeared.

1195. As regards Subhead CC—Irish Red Cross Society (Grant-in-Aid), you have, in fact, no executive responsibility for the Irish Red Cross?—No.

1196. You simply make a Grant-in-Aid to them?—Yes, and there will not be any further Grant-in-Aid.

VOTE 66—ARMY PENSIONS.

Lieut.-General P. MacMahon further examined.

1197. Chairman.—Has the referee reported for work again? I heard that he was ill?—He came back yesterday.

1198. Is he signing documents again? —He signed documents even while he was ill.

Chairman.—There was a document of mine he could not sign, not that I was hoping to get a pension.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 4—COMPTROLLER AND AUDITOR-GENERAL.

Mr. J. Maher called.

No questions.

Chairman.—That concludes the evidence. In due course each member of the Committee will receive a copy of my draft report, with memoranda attached, and each member will be entitled to submit any amendment to the report which he thinks proper, on receipt of which a meeting of the Committee will be called to consider and adopt the report in its original or amended form.

The Committee adjourned at 12.35 p.m.

* Appendix XXI.