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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 22adh Bealtaine, 1940.Wednesday, 22nd May, 1940.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY DILLON in the Chair. Seoirse Mag Craith (Ard Reachtaire Cunntas agus Ciste) called and examined.VOTE 1—PRESIDENT’S ESTABLISHMENT.Mr. J. J. McElligott called and examined.679. Chairman.—What is the explanation of Motor Cars—Replacement Grant —under subhead E?—None of the capital sum provided under subhead E—£1,200 —for the purchase of cars was spent. It was decided, on further investigation of the matter, to make an annual grant to the President in respect of his cars, and so avoid the need for the State providing the cars. This is a system that we follow also in connection with the Taoiseach, and we feel that, on the whole, it is more economical and more satisfactory. 680. Does the President accept responsibility for repairs to these cars?—For repairs, yes, and petrol supplies. All expenses in connection with the maintenance and the running of the cars are borne by the President himself. 681. And I suppose his chauffeur’s wages would be met out of subhead A?— No, the chauffeur to the President has to be paid by the President. There is no payment from public funds for the chauffeur to the President, except in so far as he pays him out of this grant of £300 a year that is paid to him. 682. What does subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—cover?—That covers the services of the Secretary to the President, together with the clerical staff and the shorthand typing staff, and an allowance to the A.D.C. 683. Deputy Hughes.—What does subhead B—Travelling Expenses—cover if the President pays his own travelling expenses?—Those are miscellaneous travelling expenses of the secretary and the secretary’s office. The subhead covers the travelling expenses and the subsistence allowances of the staff of the secretary’s office. The President ordinarily travels by car, for the running or maintenance of which no allowance is paid to him from the Vote, but there is provision in this subhead B for the possible payment of expenses to the President when other modes of conveyance are used by him. He may use a train on exceptional occasions. When he does use a train or other means of conveyance, the expenses are paid out of this travelling subhead, but it is mainly for the travelling of the secretary and people in the secretary’s office. VOTE 2—HOUSES OF THE OIREACHTAS.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.684. Chairman.—In regard to subhead A is there an increased appropriation for salaries and allowances of Teachtaí every time the income-tax rises?—No. 685. You remember when the Ministers’ salaries were paid free of income-tax the procedure was that when the income-tax rose, there was an additional sum appropriated in the Vote for their income-tax?—Yes. 686. Is there any provision made for income-tax on these salaries and allowances?—There is no provision made. 687. The same procedure is not followed as was followed in the case of the Ministers receiving their salaries free of income-tax?—No; these are treated purely as allowances and not as salaries. In the case of Ministers they would have been treated as salaries and, accordingly, liable to income-tax, but the other, as allowances for expenses, are treated as not being liable at all. Therefore, the provision does not increase when there is a rise in the rate of income-tax. 688. I observe that the subhead refers to salaries and allowances. What are the salaries that are referred to there? —The salaries referred to are those of the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and, of course, the Cathaoirleach and the Leas-Chathaoirleach in the case of the Seanad. Subhead C relates to salaries and allowances of Seanadóirí. 689. Are the Ceann Comhairle’s and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle’s salaries paid free of income-tax?—No; they are subject to income-tax in the ordinary way, except the first £480 in each case. 690. Which is regarded as an allowance?—Which is regarded as an allowance, yes. 691. In regard to subhead J—the contractor for the restaurant gets a subsidy? —Yes. The provision is being more or less stabilised at £500 a year. It was £500 in 1938-39, 1939-40, and 1940-41. 692. I observe that in the year under review the total amount of the subsidy was not paid?—No. We pay only on receipt of certified accounts, and, of course, we cannot say in advance what the figure will be. As this figure of £500 is put in long before the financial year to which it relates starts, we have to provide a certain margin in case the loss on the service would be greater than our anticipation. 693. Deputy Hughes.—How is the amount of the subsidy arrived at?—We pay a proportion of the net loss consequent on the operations of the restaurant. 694. Chairman.—Why does the contractor go on operating the restaurant if he loses money?—I have been sometimes inclined to wonder at that. They seem to be making no profit on it, and to be incurring a certain amount of loss. The matter, of course, is fixed by arrangement between the Ceann Comhairle and the restaurant, and the House Committee, I think, have something to say to it. We only come into the matter incidentally. After the certified accounts, which are furnished quarterly to the Ceann Comhairle by the caterers, have been received in the Department, we examine them and consult with the Ceann Comhairle as to the amount that should be paid to the caterers. The arrangement is that we pay up to 50 per cent. of the loss, subject to a maximum of £500. 695. It may be taken that the figure given in the Appropriation Account here represents 50 per cent. of the loss?—Yes. VOTE 3—DEPARTMENT OF THE TAOISEACH.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.696. Deputy McMenamin.—What is the explanation of subhead B as distinct from subhead E?—Subhead B relates to the travelling expenses and allowances of members of the Government, and the officers of the Department of the Taoiseach. When a Minister travels on Government business, as distinct from the business of his own Department, his expenses are borne on this Vote. If he goes to London for a conference with the British Government, his expenses are borne on this Vote, and then the officers of the Department of the Taoiseach who may travel on the business of their Department also have their expenses paid out of this subhead. VOTE 5—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.697. Chairman.—With regard to subhead AA—Actuary—what does that arise from, Mr. McElligott?—This represents a provision for payment to the British Government Actuary in respect of actuarial investigations undertaken on behalf of our Government, mainly into such questions as the Secondary Teachers’ Pension Fund; also Civil Service pension inquiries and other inquiries where an actuarial staff is required for the necessary investigation and research. There was no payment from the subhead for the year under review, as you will observe. 698. We just have an agreement with the British Government that when we want an actuarial investigation made, they will perform it?—They perform it as a sort of agency service, and we bear the cost of it. VOTE 9—COMMISSIONS AND SPECIAL INQUIRIES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.699. Chairman.—With regard to the Central Savings Committee, are the activities of the committee being promoted at the present time?—We are still making provision for the expenses of the committee. The provision in 1938-39 was £5,030; in 1939-40 it was £5,075, and in 1940-41 we have reduced it to £3,755, mainly by a reduction in travelling and expenses, and in advertising and publicity expenses. To that extent we are somewhat curtailing its activities, partly because, as I have already explained to the committee on previous occasions, the existence of these savings certificates has now been brought permanently before the public, and there seems to be scarcely a necessity to incur this large annual expenditure in order to keep it under their notice, particularly when the volume of certificates has come to be very large, and it constitutes a demand liability of over £11,000,000 at present. We think it has reached rather large dimensions, and it is, besides, a somewhat expensive form of borrowing from the point of view of the State when you take into account the fact that the expenses of this committee have to be added to the interest payable, and then there is an income-tax exemption also in respect of the interest. 700. Deputy McMenamin.—Are the public going in more for savings certificates than for the post office savings bank?—The two are running almost neck and neck, I might say. The deposits in the post office savings bank run to £10,500,000; that is, including principal and interest. The principal and interest on savings certificates outstanding run to about £11,000,000. 701. Chairman.—With regard to subhead D. 2., relating to the travelling and incidental expenses of the Commission on Irish in the Civil Service, is this body still functioning?—The Commission on Irish in the Civil Service is still functioning, but, owing to the unusual conditions created by the emergency, it has been considered desirable to discontinue the visitation of Departments, which used to occupy most of the time of the Commission’s staff. It is still meeting regularly, but the staff has been released for work elsewhere. The secretary of the Commission is still available for the meetings of the Commission and other incidental duties. 702. I take it this item of salaries will not appear in the account for the current year?—The salary of the secretary will continue to be borne on the accounts. It figures in the volume of estimates for the current year—£433. That represents the provision for 1940-41. 703. But, in fact, the secretary is doing other work as well?—He is. I should say that it is not the salary of the secretary; the salary is that which relates to the junior executive officer who looks after the work of the Commission. 704. He is still functioning?—He is, but the shorthand-typist who was in the office has been removed. 705. With regard to subhead E. 2., relating to the travelling and incidental expenses of the Tribunal of Inquiry into the marketing of fruit and vegetables, is this still functioning?—It has long ago completed the hearing of evidence, and has been considering its report for some time. Inasmuch as it has not yet presented its report, I suppose it may be considered to be still functioning. 706. How long ago is it since it completed its inquiry?—It is a matter of some years, I understand. 707. Do you not think it is nearly time this organisation was wound up one way or the other?—I think there is no provision for it in the current year’s estimates, so it has been wound up, in effect. 708. Presumably, it has reported, then? —Well, it has been wound up so far as any additional charges on the Exchequer are concerned; but it has not been wound up in the sense that it has presented its report. It may be considered functus officio. 709. Chairman.—I expect you will regard any money spent on it as nugatory expenditure if no report materialises, and I have no doubt that the Comptroller and Auditor-General will draw attention to the fact if a report is not forthcoming. Mr. McGrath.—We have hopes that it will come. 710. Chairman.—Would you say, Mr. McElligott, that there are high hopes?— I understand a report of some kind will be forthcoming, but when, I cannot say. Chairman.—We shall wait with eager anticipation the news of its arrival. VOTE 12—STATE LABORATORY.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 13—CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 14—PROPERTY LOSSES COMPENSATION.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 15—PERSONAL INJURIES COMPENSATION.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 16—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.711. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has a note on this Vote as follows:— 14. “I observed that a pension was awarded to the widow of a member of the Gárda Síochána who died of acute miliary tuberculosis on the day after his marriage, which took place in hospital. I am informed that the Gárda applied on the day of the marriage for permission to marry, and that the necessary permission was granted on the same day.” Are you satisfied that this was a matter arising purely out of the personal relations of these two people, and that there was no question of fraud?—It is difficult to say that I am completely satisfied. I understand that these people were engaged for quite a long period before they got married. They were married by permission of the Commissioner, and, in any case, the provisions of the Gárda Síochána Pensions Order do not restrict the grant of widows’ pensions by reference to marriage with or without permission. If a member of the Force dies while serving, and has served at least five years, and leaves a widow, a pension is automatically payable, unless the widow has received compensation otherwise, or has been living apart from her husband. In either of these contingencies, the pension may be reduced or withheld. None of these contingencies had befallen here. There was also the supporting circumstance that this man seems to have been estranged from his relatives. He had very few relations. He had an uncle and an aunt living in Wicklow, and a brother living in Canada. The uncle and aunt were notified of his death, and did not attend the funeral. The widow looked after the funeral and all the necessary work in connection with it. She became entitled under his will to whatever property he possessed, so that it was an indication of intention on his part to support her. Prima facie, the case, when we got it first, looked like a case of making over a farm to get the old age pension—contracting marriage the day before he died to secure a pension for his widow. When the Commissioner had given his consent to the marriage, and everything else appeared to be in order, we felt that we could not legally withhold our consent to the granting of a pension. There was no provision under which we could escape liability. 712. The case does not look very pleasant, but I suppose the safest way to deal with it is on the basis of de mortuis nil nisi bonum, and to assume that there was some good ground for it?—Prior to his marriage, this man was absent from duty on sick leave for 321 days, and that possibly delayed the marriage. If he had been well at any time during that period he probably would have contracted the marriage. It is the first case of its kind that occurred since the Gárda Síochána Pensions Order was made in 1925, the only one in 15 years, and I felt at the time that we ought to modify the Pensions Order so as to prevent similar cases arising again, but it was pointed out to me that it was scarcely worth while, that a case like this was not likely to recur, but if the committee feel that we should provide against a possible recurrence, we could take legal opinion on the matter. 713. I certainly think that a recurrence of instances of this kind would be highly undesirable, and would give rise to legitimate suspicion that there was something amiss?—I really think it should have been stopped before it came to us. Our hands were tied when the case came to us by the terms of the Pensions Order. I think if the authorities had refused their permission to the marriage—but, then, of course, that would have been equivalent to saying: “This man is about to die.” 714. One sees at once that the situation was full of difficulties, and I shall not recommend to the committee, although the committee may take another course, the making of a note on the matter, but I certainly think it would be well if the regulations were reviewed with a view to making a recurrence of such a case impossible. 715. Deputy Hughes.—What condition was the man in on the day of his marriage?—He must have been in extremis because he died the following day. 716. Was he able to go to the church? —They were married in Cork Street Fever Hospital. 717. Chairman.—I think it will meet the situation if we leave you under the impression that we should like you to review the regulations without going to the point of making a note on the matter?—I shall take the matter up with the Department of Justice. VOTE 17—RATES ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 18—SECRET SERVICE.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 19—TARIFF COMMISSION.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.718. Chairman.—Has the Tariff Commission been disposed of since?—The Tariff Commission has been wound up. An Act was passed revoking the Tariff Commission Acts, 1926 and 1930. and the Tariff Commission is no more. The Prices Commission discharges certain functions previously discharged by the Tariff Commission. Chairman.—I can remember that we had a discussion on that subject in Dáil Eireann. VOTE 20—EXPENSES UNDER THE ELECTORAL ACT AND JURIES ACT.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 21—MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES.719. Chairman.—On subhead BB— contribution towards cost of structural alterations in Abbey Theatre, Dublin (Revote)—has that work been undertaken since?—No, it is still to come. The provision has been repeated in each year since 1938-39, but no advantage has been taken of it so far, and I think that the outbreak of war and the heavy increase in building costs has rather set the work back again. 720. And does this repeated provision year after year serve to provide you with the surpluses of which we so frequently boast?—Well, it is a modest contribution towards them. 721 Deputy Hughes.—Subhead D refers to the Irish Plate. What is the Irish Plate?—It is a Plate of 100 guineas run annually at the Curragh. VOTE 25—SUPPLEMENTARY AGRICULTURAL GRANTS.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 26—LAW CHARGES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 28—UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 30—QUIT RENT OFFICE.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.722. Chairman.—How long do you expect the Quit Rent Office to survive? Is it not a dying service?—It is a dying service, but I am afraid I could not put any term to its existence. The provision is being cut down practically each year. For the current year it is £3,280 as against £4,057 in 1939-40. As long as the activities under the Land Acts continue, the Quit Rent Office will probably survive. At various times we considered amalgamating it with other offices, such as the Board of Works, but we were not satisfied that any economy could be effected thereby. 723. Are quit rents gradually being extinguished?—Yes, as the operations of the Land Acts are continued, and in time quit rents should be completely extinguished, when we look forward to a simultaneous extinction of this office. It has some other functions besides that of the collection of quit rents. It looks after Government property at the Curragh, along the river Liffey, and elsewhere; it also looks after a lot of grazing leases, leases of houses and of other Government property. VOTE 31—MANAGEMENT OF GOVERNMENT STOCKS.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.No question. VOTE 69.—EMPLOYMENT SCHEMES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.724. Chairman.—There are extra receipts payable to the Exchequer in respect of the sale of seed for potato and cereal crops amounting to £20,000. Does the out-going in respect of that seed for potatoes, which was subsequently sold, and for which we received £20,000, appear in the item of the Schemes for the Provision of Employment and the Relief of Distress? Where do we buy the potatoes, that is, under what Vote?—They would be bought under this Vote. In some cases there would be a loss, as the receipts would not cover the whole expenditure on the provision of seed potatoes. In that case the loss would be borne on the Exchequer. 725. So that part of the expenditure under Schemes for the Provision of Employment and the Relief of Distress was for the purchase of seed potatoes. Then there is a receipt to the Exchequer, as a result of the sale of those potatoes to needy persons, and the difference between what they realised and what they cost represents the net charge on the Exchequer?—Exactly. VOTE 70—EXPORT BOUNTIES AND SUBSIDIES.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.726. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General on this Vote. Mr. McGrath.—Although this Vote is accounted for by Mr. McElligott, it is usual for the committee to address any questions regarding it to representatives of the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Industry and Commerce. 727. Chairman.—That is a very sensible arrangement. The clerk will draw attention to this Vote when Mr. Twomey and Mr. Leydon are before us? I presume everyone is agreeable to that? VOTE 72—INDUSTRIAL ALCOHOL.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.728. Chairman.—This is an advance for the purpose of establishing a company to be known as Monarchana Alcóil na h-Eireann, Teoranta. Does that appear as a subhead in the accounts, as figuring in supply services?—Yes, the company has now been established. Provision here was for the purpose of paying stamp duty on the authorised capital and other stamp duties, and to pay for the printing of the Memorandum and Articles of Association and initial office expenses. It was described in the accounts as an advance. It was subsequently bulked with other advances made for the building of factories in a debenture which was secured by all the assets of the company, and the total now figures amongst the general exchequer assets as a sum of £260,000. 729. Deputy McMenamin.—What would the interest be on this £260.000?—The company is really subsidised from public funds to enable it to carry on, and so far as it pays interest it really only represents an increase in the subsidy to it, so we have been inclined to treat the question of interest payments not too seriously. 730. Is not this amount extracted from the consumer in the price of the spirit? There is no direct subsidy from the Exchequer?—There is an excise allowance of 8¾d. per gallon. By comparison, the tax on the product is less than the customs duty on imported competing products, and in that way the industry is subsidised. 731. There is further an obligation on petrol distributors to accept a certain proportion of this spirit at a price fixed by the company?—Although they fix a price, it does not cover the total cost of manufacturing the spirit, in the sense that the spirit does not bear its full meed of taxation. 732. Chairman.—The spirit is sold for something like 3/- or 3/6 per gallon?— The price is around 3/-. 733. Do you not think it is desirable that the Department of Finance should require the interest to be paid promptly, in as much as failure to keep accounts on a strictly commercial basis operates to conceal the true measure of the State subsidy to this enterprise?—Yes, I agree with that principle generally. We did get the payment from the company in the past year amounting to something like £22,000, so far as I remember, but I am not quite clear as to the items it actually covered. 734. I would be obliged if you would let us have—at your convenience, there is no hurry—a memorandum* regarding the basis of the agreement between the Department of Finance and the Industrial Alcohol Company in regard to this matter, so that we might see whether their accounts could not be kept in a true commercial fashion, in order that the true measure of the subsidy they are receiving could be ascertained?—I will do that. VOTE 73—REPAYMENT TO CONTINGENCY FUND.Mr. J. J. McElligott further examined.735. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General as follows:— 104. “In addition to the sum of £212 17s. 6d. charged to this Vote for expenses in connection with the installation of the President, ascertained expenditure incurred in respect of the installation is charged to the following votes:—vote 3, Department of the Taoiseach, £73 17s. 7d.; vote 11, Public Works and Buildings. £265 3s. 6d.; vote 22, Stationery and Printing, £31; and vote 63, Posts and Telegraphs, £6 1s. 4d. Further expenditure of an undetermined amount incidental to the ceremonies is included in the appropriation accounts for Gárda Síochána (No. 33) and Army (No. 65).” This is a purely informative paragraph. Mr. McGrath.—Yes. The witness withdrew. |
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