Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1937 > Committee of Public Accounts > Report - Appropriation Accounts 1935 - 1936

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Céadaoin, 19adh Bealtaine, 1937.

Wednesday, 19th May, 1937.

The Committee sat at 11 a.m.

DEPUTY DILLON in the Chair.

Seóirse Mag Craith (Ard-Sgrúdóir); Mr. C. S. Almond and Mr. T. S. C. Dagg (An Roinn Airgid) called and examined.

VOTE 43—DUNDRUM ASYLUM.

Dr. G. W. Scroope called and examined.

545. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General on sub-head A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances:—

“In the course of a local test examination of payments of lodging allowance made to married attendants who are not provided with quarters, it was ascertained that the allowance was being irregularly paid to certain attendants. The Accounting Officer in reply to my inquiry, stated that payment of the allowance in the cases in question was being withheld and that the matter was under investigation. Until the inquiries have been completed the amount of the unauthorised payment charged to Vote in this and previous years cannot be stated.”

Mr. McGrath.—In going over the allowances of married officers who were not accommodated at the asylum we found that certain officers were receiving weekly allowances, who were not, according to our information, paying rent at the time.

546. Chairman.—I do not understand that. You say they were not paying rent. What does that mean?

Mr. McGrath.—There seemed to have been some law proceedings with the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Trust, and those officers were tenants of the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Trust. Taking advantage of the decision of the court those tenants, who happened to be officers of the asylum, were not paying rent, although they were drawing rent allowance.

Dr. Scroope.—That is so.

Mr. McGrath.—“Until the inquiries have been completed the amount of the unauthorised payments charged to Vote in this and previous years cannot be stated.” We understand that these men have to pay rates?

Dr. Scroope.—Yes.

547. At least they are liable for rates, whether they are paying them or not I cannot say?—Yes, and upkeep of the houses.

548. The matter, I understand, is under investigation by the Department of Finance at the moment, and I believe the Accounting Officer is waiting for instructions? —That is so.

549. Chairman.—Before we ask the Accounting Officer for further information. I want to know what are the terms of the contract of employment of those attendants. Can you tell us that, doctor? —The married attendants living outside are granted an allowance in lieu of the quarters which they had in the Asylum when they were not married. There were certain attendants who had quarters from the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Trust. There was a dispute between the tenants of the houses and the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Trust, and the case was brought into court. The decision of the court was that those attendants were not liable for rent. I do not see that I was entitled to stop their rent allowance, as that allowance was due in lieu of the quarters which they had in the asylum when they were single men. I understand that the dispute as to the ownership of the houses which they occupy has not yet been settled.

550. If an attendant in your institution got married and went to live with friends, you would not deem it your duty to inquire as to whether or not that attendant was paying rent to his friends? He would get his allowance because he had left the asylum, and had abandoned

his perquisites as a resident in the asylum. Is not that so?—That is so.

551. Is there then any special reason why you should inquire as to whether they are in fact paying any rent for the houses on the Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Trust Estate, any more than you would inquire as to whether they were paying rent to their friends?—I would put that very case. Let us assume that an attendant marries and his wife owns the house. That was one of the points I put to myself about it.

Deputy Smith.—I cannot see how the question as to whether or not a man pays rent arises here.

Chairman.—That is the very point I am making.

552. Deputy Smith.—If a man is taken into the service as a single man he is entitled to be housed in the institution?

Dr. Scroope.—Quite so.

553. Deputy Smith.—The terms of his appointment provide that, in the event of his getting married, a marriage allowance is made. When he marries he immediately goes outside to live, and it seems an extraordinary thing that the question of whether he pays rent or whether he does not should be the subject of investigation by you.

Chairman.—Perhaps Mr. Almond can help us in this matter?

Mr. Almond.—This question has raised several other questions in its train. The conditions governing the payment of this allowance are at present being reviewed by the Department of Finance in collaboration with the Department of Local Government, and I think at this stage, if it could be left to the two Departments, a satisfactory scheme could be devised for the future.

554. Chairman.—Perhaps at this stage, Mr. Almond, you can say what is the attitude of the Department of Finance to the dilemma mentioned by Deputy Smith and myself. If an attendant, as part of his contract of employment, gets board and lodging in the institution, with the proviso that if he elects to marry and live outside the institution a compensating allowance will be made, does the Department of Finance consider it within their purview to inquire whether that man, in fact, pays rent, and how much rent he pays, consequent on his marriage and residence outside the institution?— Definitely so, because this is supposed to compensate him for the cost of his lodging.

Chairman.—The Department does not take the view that a man’s salary consists of the money payments made each week, plus the lodging which he receives in the institution?

Deputy Smith.—I entirely disagree with the Department’s view as expressed by our friend.

555. Chairman.—Perhaps Mr. Almond would inform us as to what the exact position is.

Mr. Almond.—The arrangement—an old one—was that the conditions attaching to the prison service would apply to Dundrum. Some difficulty has been encountered in assimilating Dundrum to the prison conditions. The problem may possibly be solved by fixing some sort of minimum allowance and, then, a sliding scale to a maximum allowance, so that the man who has no friends or relatives with whom to live and who has to pay the full amount of rent will receive somewhat more than the man who is living, say, in a Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Land Trust house where he has only to pay 1/- a week rates.

556. Deputy Goulding.—This note deals with payments made in the past.

Mr. Almond.—What happened in the past will have to be settled by arrangement between the Departments concerned.

Deputy Smith.—The amended view, as put forward, is one with which I, in so far as I have any responsibility, do not find myself in agreement. That is, that there should be a minimum and maximum allowance. I do not see why a minimum and maximum allowance should enter into the question at all.

Chairman.—We are not free to press Mr. Almond as to what is going to be done in the future. We must confine ourselves strictly to what has been done in the past.

Deputy Smith.—In so far as the irregularities in the past are to be remedied in the manner suggested by our friend, I find myself in entire disagreement with the proposal.

557. Chairman.—That is a matter on which we should more properly address the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. As regards the past, we should like to know what were the terms of the contract of employment of these men when resident in the institution.

Mr. Almond.—They were allowed to receive up to 10/6 per week in respect of lodging. That was the maximum.

558. Chairman.—When they were living in the institution, did their contract of employment provide that they would receive so much per week and quarters in the institution?—Yes, as single men. No married men are allowed to live in the asylum.

559. Was there a term in their contract of employment that, in the event of their getting married, there would be an allowance for married quarters outside?—There was provision for the payment of lodging allowance.

560. The amount of the lodging allowance was not set out?—It varied from time to time according to the cost of houses. It was as low as 3/6 at one time and, as the cost of lodgings increased, it was varied by the British Treasury and by ourselves.

561. Has the practice been that every man living out got the same rent allowance?—No.

562. Chairman.—There has always been a discrepancy between one attendant and another as regards lodging allowances?

Dr. Scroope.—They received an allowance according to the rent they paid outside.

Mr. Almond.—The same practice obtains in the prison service and we could not make any change in respect of Dundrum Asylum without changing the practice in relation to the prisons. It is, therefore, rather a big question and we do not want to arrive at a hasty decision.

563. Chairman.—Would it be too much to ask you for a note of the circumstances which led up to this difficulty?

Mr. Almond.—Might we delay sending you the note until we shall have reached agreement with the Department of Local Government?

Chairman.—I do not think that any member of the Committee would wish to interfere with what you propose to do in the future, because that does not come within the ambit of our competence, but we should like to make a note on the basis of the contract of employment which these men enjoyed during the time covered by these Appropriation Accounts.

Deputy Smith.—The information just given to us puts a different complexion on the whole case. If these allowances are paid on the basis of the rents paid by the individuals, our criticism would have to be revised.

564.* Chairman.—It would be a great help to us if we could have a note on that matter. If we wanted further information, we could ask Mr. Almond for it.

Mr. Almond.—Do you require a note as to the original authority?

Chairman.—As to the terms of the contract of employment with these men when they entered the service and the changes which the Department purported to make since then.

565. Mr. McGrath.—I did not like to intervene up to the present but I should like to point out to the Committee the possibility of their interfering with administration. It might be as well for the Committee to know that they cannot interfere in matters of administration.

Chairman.—I do not quite understand that.

Mr. McGrath.—The question of administration is not before the Committee. We are dealing with cash paid out.

566. Chairman.—And we are entitled to inquire whether any money has been paid to these men improperly or any money withheld from them improperly. Therefore, we ask Mr. Almond to furnish us with a note of the circumstances.

Mr. McGrath.—The Committee is only entitled to deal with the expenditure before them, not with money that was not spent.

567. Chairman.—Suppose money was appropriated for a certain purpose and was not paid out by the Department concerned in accordance with the statutory directions of Dáil Eireann, is it not competent for this Committee to inquire why the money was not laid out?

Mr. McGrath.—So far as I know, this Committee is not concerned with money provided by the Oireachtas and not spent.

568. Chairman.—I observe a note in your report—Note 1—directing attention to the fact that very large sums have been surrendered.

Mr. McGrath.—That is merely for the information of the Dáil; it is not by way of criticism.

569. Chairman.—I understand that excess estimation and insufficient expenditure have frequently been commented upon by this Committee

Mr. McGrath.—Yes, for the purpose of bringing estimation in the future nearer to the requirements.

570. Chairman.—If moneys were voted for the purpose of paying these men lodging allowance and lodging allowance was not paid, in your judgment this Committee has no right to comment upon it?

Mr. McGrath.—The non-payment would generally be a matter of administration. The Departments were trying to carry out the wishes of the Dáil in accordance with rules which they are entitled to make.

571. Chairman.—We asked for a note of the circumstances under which this allowance was not paid. If it appears that there was full authority for withholding the payment, our report will either ignore the matter or else state that the matter was raised and that the Committee was satisfied that everything was in order.

Mr. McGrath.—I am merely drawing attention to the possibility of the Committee commenting on matters of administration.

Deputy Smith.—When a note like this comes before us, the temptation to go further than we are entitled to go is always present. One is tempted, on reading a note like this, to go to the bottom and see what the reasons were. Perhaps many of the questions put here have no bearing on our proper duties and functions but the temptation to put them is oftentimes very strong.

572. Chairman.—You will always find that the Chairman will keep members of the Committee to matters that are strictly relevant. I am quite prepared, as Chairman of the Committee, to take responsibility for asking Mr. Almond for a note on this particular matter covering the circumstances up to the time of these Appropriation Accounts. If it subsequently emerges that we have gone further than we are entitled to go, it will be open to the Departments to make representations and the proper tribunal will set the matter right.

Mr. McGrath.—It is my duty to keep the Committee right.

573. Chairman.—We appreciate that. As regards sub-head C—uniforms, Clothing for Patients, etc.—I presume that there is a Department of Finance virement for the excess expenditure.

Mr. McGrath.—Yes. There always is.

574. Chairman.—For some time, the question has been arising as to whether the Department of Finance minute should be quoted in the note, explaining that authority has been secured. I should like to know now what the attitude of the Department of Finance is on the desirability of the individual Departments quoting their authority for virement.

Mr. Almond.—We think it would be very helpful not only for purposes of information but also as an indication that the correct procedure has been carried out. I understand, however, that the Comptroller and Auditor-General thinks that it is rather an act of supererogation to put in the Finance reference because the excess could not have been properly incurred without Finance sanction.

575. Deputy McMenamin.—Excesses have been incurred without sanction.

Mr. Almond.—If excess expenditure were incurred without Finance sanction, the Comptroller and Auditor-General would draw attention to it.

576. Mr. McGrath.—In finishing off an account, we have a list of items of work to be done. One of these items is “Excess Expenditure.’ Inquiry is made as to whether Department of Finance sanction has been obtained for excess expenditure and my officer cannot bring the account to me until he is satisfied on that particular point. At the first meeting of the Committee this year, reference was made to this matter and I stated the opinion of the Audit Office and explained that we did not allow any excess item to appear in the accounts without specific sanction from the Department of Finance. I also explained that some of the Departments stated in their notes to the Accounts that Department of Finance sanction had been obtained while other Departments did not adopt that course. That was correct up to three or four years ago. Since that time, certain Departments, which had quoted Department of Finance sanction, understood from my officers that it was not necessary to quote these sanctions further, the reason being that we were trying to get down to uniformity by not having the Department of Finance sanction quoted at all, its being understood that Department of Finance sanction is obtained in all cases. I may have been the cause of a misunderstanding amongst the members when I complained of some Departments not quoting the Department of Finance sanction. Since three or four years ago, the Departments who were quoting the sanctions understood from my officers that it was not necessary to do so further, seeing that Department of Finance sanction was obtained in each case and that the quotation was, therefore, unnecessary. I understand that the Chairman wishes to have the Department of Finance sanction quoted in each case. That is a matter of arrangement between the Department of Finance and the other Departments, if that course is found to be desirable. I am not sure whether the Committee, on hearing my explanation, will wish to have that done, seeing that no Department can get away without sanction. The examination of an account is not complete until we see that sanction has been obtained in every case where there has been an excess.

577. Chairman.—Members of the Committee are now clear on the issue and it will not be necessary to raise it in regard to the other accounts. We can consider the matter at length when we come to draw up our report. Is any report made by you, Dr. Scroope, as to therapeutics in Dundrum Asylum?—No particular report on therapeutics is made but there is a general survey.

578. There is no means by which an individual interested in the administration of such establishments can ascertain the progress of treatment or anything of that kind in respect of your institution? —He can see the report of the Inspector of Mental Hospitals. He reports on the different places at length every year.

579. That report is published?—Yes.

580. If there was any progress made in the treatment of any conditions which ordinarily bring a patient to your institution, reference would be made to that in your report?—Reference would be made to it.

581. Has there in fact been any progress in the treatment of the mental diseases coming under your care in recent times?—Yes, there have been considerable improvements made with regard to the conditions of the patients and with regard to their treatment in recent years.

582. And are any conditions curable now that were not curable some time ago? —it is very difficult to say that, but the facilities are better now than they were some time ago.

VOTE 23—VALUATION AND BOUNDARY SURVEY.

Mr. J. Herlihy called and examined.

583. Chairman.—There is no note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. With regard to subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—would you be good enough, Mr. Herlihy, to tell us what exactly does the Valuation and Boundary Survey do?—It maintains the cadastral of the valuation of immovable property within the Saorstát for the purpose of local rating, for the purpose of schedule A of the income-tax and for certain other minor purposes, licence duty on public houses, for example. In addition, we assist the Revenue Commissioners by making capital valuations of immovable property for estate duty purposes.

584. So that if a local authority suspected that a piece of property was under valued or over valued, they would refer the matter to you and you would determine the correct valuation and report to the local authority accordingly?—Every local authority sends us a list annually of cases in their areas which they consider require revision. We ourselves have no initiative so far as valuations of property for rating purposes are concerned. We only move when we are requested to move by a local authority.

585. With regard to sub-head E— Appropriations-in-Aid —does a local authority pay you a fixed sum every year or does its contribution vary in accordance with the number of references it makes to you?—A fixed sum every year. It is fixed by an old Act of 1874. The Act is quoted there.

VOTE 24—ORDNANCE SURVEY.

Mr. J. Herlihy further examined.

586. Chairman.—Here again there is no note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. With regard to sub-head A— Salaries, Wages and Allowances—could you tell us shortly what is the day to day work of the Ordnance Survey Department?—Keeping the ordnance survey maps up to date. The whole of the Free State is mapped and has been mapped for almost a century on the scale of 6 inches to the mile. Then a large portion of it, that is to say the whole face of the country, except certain mountainous and thinly populated areas, is also mapped on a scale of 25 inches to the mile, and urban and suburban areas are mapped on a scale of 60 inches to the mile. Owing to the construction of new roads, the erection of new buildings, the making of new fences and so on such maps naturally are constantly becoming obsolete, and the day to day work of the survey is trying to keep them up to date.

587. Deputy McMenamin.—Is such day to day work as alterations of this kind, drainage schemes, directing rivers and erection of fences, reported to you?—No, there is no question of reporting. We simply select a six inch sheet, that is, a tract of country six miles by four. We send our surveyors into it and they map the country as they find it. To a large extent, in an ordinary area, you would find a great deal of detail the same as it was before and then it is simply a question of measuring the changes and putting in the new work, and, of course, printing and publishing it.

588. All these cases of sub-division of estates by the Land Commission will involve reinspection?—The Land Commission surveyors do that for themselves. They use our maps for the purpose.

589. Do you confirm that in your maps? For instance, if 20 years hence a question is before the court, they will have to use your maps and not the Land Commission’s?—They use our maps and make their manuscript changes on them.

590. Do they send them into you?—No, their map only exists in manuscript, whereas we print, publish and sell ours.

591. Chairman.—I think what Deputy McMenamin is anxious to find out is, if it were reported to you that a large estate had been broken up and new fences and buildings erected by the Land Commission, would. you immediately send your surveyors into the area to remap the area so as to bring your existing maps up to date?—No, we could not do it in the Ordnance Survey. They do nothing until they go to revise that portion of the country the next time; but in connection with our valuation office work, if you get an estate divided up, you naturally have some new rate-payers. One individual previously was paying all the rates and now it is a question of, possibly, a dozen individuals having to pay. That sets up a necessity for revision of valuation. It would come to us in the ordinary course from the local authority and then our valuers go down and revise the valuations, and as part and parcel of their valuation work, they keep valuation maps, that is to say, ordnance survey maps on which they mark in manuscript the boundaries of every holding.

592. Deputy McMenamin.—Would that take place within a reasonably short time of sub-division?—Within 12 months.

593. Chairman.—With regard to sub-head E—Materials for Facsimile Reproduction of Ancient Manuscripts—is much progress being made in this business of photographing manuscripts?—The Manuscripts Commission is the body which determines what work is to be done. We simply do what they ask us to do. A considerable amount has been done. I have a note here showing that the works completed by the Ordnance Survey to date are:—The Brehon Laws, the Book of Lecan, Early Christian Art in Ireland, Negociations d’Irlande, the Book of Fenagh, the Book of Armagh and Silva Gadelica. The works in progress are:— The Book of Colgan, the Book of Ui Maine, the Annals of Loch Cé and manuscript 23, number 10—I do not know what that is.

594. Are these available for purchase from the Government Publications Office in Nassau Street?—Yes.

595. Does it come within the scope of your competence to say whether these manuscripts are sold to the public at approximately the cost of production, or are they sold on the commercial basis?— The Stationery Office—

596. They would know that better?— Yes.

597. With regard to sub-head G— Appropriations in Aid—I notice that you expected to receive £1,280 from the Stationery Office for this fascimile reproduction of ancient manuscripts, but in fact you realised only £615?—Yes.

598. That simply meant that you completed a smaller number of manuscript reproductions than you had anticipated?— Yes. It could happen in this way, that one would have a quantity of work in hand which one would anticipate would be handed over on 31st March, but which in fact was not handed over for 10 days or so.

599. In either the Ordnance Survey or the Valuation and Boundary Survey, do the earliest maps give any references as to the names of tenants of holdings?— No, the maps contain no names, but, of course, we have in the Valuation Office Griffith’s original valuation in printed books, and that contains the name of the occupier of every holding in Ireland at about the middle of the last century, and some of them earlier.

600. Deputy McMenamin.—You are not concerned about names, but only about the surface?—In the Ordnance Survey part of our work, but in the Valuation part of our work it is rather important.

601. Chairman.—What are your earliest records showing the names of the rated occupiers?—They would be about 1830. Griffith became Commissioner of Valuation in 1826, I think.

602. Do you happen to know if there is any other source of information as to the identity of rated occupiers of land in this country at an earlier date than Griffith’s valuation?—Of course you had a local rating system of some sort since the eighteenth century. It is possible that the old records of the grand juries have been preserved somewhere, but it is very doubtful.

603. Deputy McMenamin.—Is there not a possibility of getting it from the Land Commission? Have not the landlords’ books been handed over to the Land Commission where estates have been taken over?—The Land Commission did not commence serious work until 1881.

604. But the landlords have handed over the books to the Land Commission? —Yes, their tenant rolls, etc.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 22.—STATIONERY AND PRINTING.

Mr. J. B. Whelehan called and examined.

Paragraph 15, Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report:—

Government Publications Sale Office.

“In my report last year I referred to the preparation of a trading and profit and loss account and balance sheet for the Government Publications Sale Office, as directed by the Minister for Finance under Section 5 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act, 1921. The audit of the accounts for the period 15th September, 1930, to 31st March, 1933, has been completed, but accounts in respect of the three years ended 31st March, 1936, have not yet been submitted for audit.

605. Mr. McGrath.—The accounts for the two years ending 31st March, 1935, have been received by the Audit Office since this note was written. With reference to the accounts up to 31st March, 1933, which had been completed, I shall read out some details in connection with these accounts. These accounts are not referred to this Committee. This is merely an inquiry by the Department of Finance in order to see that this Sales Office is a business establishment. In the year 1930-31—that is six months—the turn-over was £2,990, and the net loss for that period was £134 7s. 7d. For the year 1931-32, the turn-over was £7,539, and the nett loss, £30 1s. 10d. For the year 1932-33, the turn-over was £9,805, and the profit for that period, after charging expenses, was £638 17s. 0d. That is 6.52 per cent. on the turn-over. These are the accounts I have examined. The last year showed a profit, and the previous years a loss. For the two years ending 31st March, 1935, although the audit has not been completed, I can say with some confidence that the following are the results. For the year 1933-34, the turn-over was £10,795 12s. 4d., and the net profit, £798 2s. 1d. For the year 1934-35, the turn-over was £10,210, and the net profit £678 18s. 10d. I am giving the Committee a whole lot of figures, but the reason is that we have not these accounts regularly furnished. As the Accounting Officer explained last year, that was due to certain circumstances over which the Stationery Office had no control. In addition to the information which I have already given, we have a check account on stock. These results I have given you are net results, after allowing for leakages in stock and all expenses. I want the Committee to know that we have a stock accounting system, and the following are the results. In the year 1931-32, there was a stock shortage of £110 on a turn-over for the year of £7,539 10s. 8d.; for 1933-34, there was a stock shortage of £76 on a turn-over of £10,795; for 1934-35, there was a stock shortage of £90 on a turn-over of £10,210. I should explain to the Committee that, although these stock shortages perhaps look big at first, for the last year under observation, £90 of a shortage on a turn-over of £10,210 represents nine-tenths of 1 per cent, on the whole turn-over; so that, on the whole, I think the position is satisfactory. I should like to emphasise again the importance of having the account rendered up to date.

606. Mr. Whelehan.—It is very kind of the Comptroller and Auditor-General to give these figures and to explain the position. It will relieve me of the necessity of explaining the position with regard to the figures. I undertook when here last year to have the accounts practically up to date by the end of 12 months and the Committee seemed satisfied with the undertaking. In December last, the undertaking was honoured with regard to the years 1933-34 and 1934-35. For the year 1935-36 we have practically completed the accounts and we hope that the accounts will be in the hands of the Comptroller and Auditor-General within the next few weeks. Perhaps, in justice to the staff, particularly the Accounts Branch of the Stationery Office. I should say that for a considerable period in 1936 the Sales Office was short of staff due to the difficulty of filling the post and it was also short of a book-keeper. While, in the year 1936, there was actually an increase of over 32 per cent. in the business done, that increased business had to be carried on by the depleted staff. It was practically impossible to do everything. The customers had to be attended to, and I am afraid the accounts had more or less to look after themselves. From the Stationery Office we spared any staff we possibly could to look after the matter and we are satisfied from the rough balance we have been taking out, that the work was efficiently supervised from the Stationery Office. Now, however, with a book-keeper in the Sales Office and with the advent of an assistant to replace one who died more than 12 months ago, we do not anticipate any difficulty in meeting the wishes of the Comptroller and Auditor-General in having the accounts in regularly. There was certainly a decided difficulty for a couple of years. As business gentlemen, the Committee will realise that with an increase last year of over 32 per cent. and a staff short one out of four, the demands on the surviving staff were very heavy indeed. I can assure the Comptroller and Auditor-General that within the next two weeks he will have the accounts up to date.

607. Chairman.—When it will be possible to provide the accounts for the year ending 31st March, 1936?—Within a fortnight.

608. That is very satisfactory. What I should have asked is, when will the accounts for the year ending March 31st 1937, be available?—By the next audit— probably November.

609. Before the end of the year?—Yes. That would be the normal course. They should be ready by November.

610. I should be interested to hear an explanation as to how you carry fire insurance in the Stationery Office. The custom, I understand, in Government Departments is that the Government carries its own fire insurance. Is there a special exception made with regard to the Publication Office?—Of course there we have been meticulously careful with the costings as the Sales Office has to be carried out on a strictly commercial basis and we had to take cognisance of fire insurance.

611. Does that mean that a policy was actually negotiated?—No; we put down as cost against insurance what a premium would cost us had we taken it out with a fire company.

612. But the fact is that the Government carries its own insurance for the Stationery Office as for other Government Departments?—Yes.

613. I suppose, Mr. McGrath, the rendering of the accounts of the Stationery Office is now reasonably satisfactory?

Mr. McGrath.—Yes.

614. I take it from that, that the staff difficulties in your Department have been overcome and that you are adequately staffed for the work to be done?—The staff of the Stationery Office proper has been settled. We are yet awaiting the appointment of an officer in the Sales Office, but we have been facilitated in every possible way by the Department of Finance in the matter.

615. I hope Mr. Dagg has been suitably impressed by our discussion this morning on the difficulties of getting the accounts promptly rendered, Now, Mr, Whelehan, it is to be observed that you did not seem to have made adequate provision in your own estimate for the staff you required because in fact you spent more money with a reduced staff than you estimated? —For some months we have had quite a considerable addition to the staff and there is a lot of revision in the rates paid to packers, porters and warehousemen generally following the recommendations of the Civil Service Commission of Inquiry. I take it that these of course had not been anticipated by us when the Estimates were framed.

616. Deputy O Briain.—In connection with the item F (6) how is it you only spent £3 11s. 11d.?

Chairman.—Yes, though £125 was estimated?—The explanation is given there in the note to volume six, page 70, which states:—

“Volume II of this publication for which provision was made had not been advanced to publication within the year.”

Deputy O Briain.—That is all right, I had not seen the note.

Mr. Whelehan.—The editor of that proposed volume was sick for a considerable time. The plates for the volume are ready but we cannot publish until we receive the letter press from the editor. Much research has to be put into that.

617. Chairman.—With regard to F (7) —Publication of Irish Translation of the New Testament—is the Bedell Bible included in the New Testament?—No

618. With reference to sub-head K— Binding—has this binding been done in Ireland?—Yes.

619. Is it done by independent binders or does the office do this work?—It is done by outside contractors.

620. Is it all common binding or is there any handsome binding done in connection with some of the more luxurious publications, such as the volume illustrating Early Christian Art in Ireland?— Some of the manuscripts which the Ordnance Department are executing for us are certainly very beautifully bound or shall be very beautifully bound. The expenditure on some of these will be very considerable, running £4 to £5 a volume, perhaps. Having spent so much we should not cavil at the extra cost involved in putting the work into a respectable binding. These certainly will be well bound. On the whole, however, I should not say that very elaborate or artistic binding is done.

621. Does it ever occur to you that the value of certain Government publications is greatly diminished by the extremely indigestible appearance of some of the works published by the Stationery Office? —Our experience is such that we find that a very small increase in price will leave the Government publications on our shelves.

622. Deputy McMenamin.—Yes, and they are already sufficiently dear, you think?—I should say that the public in this country get off much better with regard to many Government publications than they do across-Channel. Still, it is very difficult to dispose of them. For example, take reports of commissions of inquiry. I have seen, quite recently, the minutes of evidence of a commission across the Channel and the price was 30/-. If we put anything like that figure on any of our publications, we would not sell one dozen copies. We do not cost our publications on the same basis as they are costed in Great Britain at all. We give the public the benefit of reprint rates of the copies printed beyond a certain number. That, of course, is a question of policy. Perhaps I should mention to the Committee here what really concerns the Sales Office in Nassau Street, that the Stationery Office never displayed any considerable anxiety to start a commercial office in Dublin. But Deputies thought that the Government publications should have as wide publicity as possible, and they thought that agency services were not the best means of securing such publicity. For a number of years prominent Deputies in the Dáil pressed the Minister for Finance, when our Estimates came up for review, to take steps to secure wider publicity. That was the genesis of the Sales Office in Nassau Street, and not to get the office going as a commercial proposition. It was purely and simply to spread as widely as possible the influence of Government publications. The policy, as I understand it, was to spread as much as possible the sphere of influence of Government publications by the State, not to make a commercial success, but if it could be made a commercial success it would be all the better. The genesis of the Sales Office was to secure the widest publicity for Government publications. An increase in price with very handsome bindings would not, I am afraid, help to do that.

Chairman.—I quite see that. I do not think there is any other question on this Vote. We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Whelehan.

The witness withdrew.

VOTE 63—POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS.

Mr. P. S. O’Hegarty called and examined.

623. Chairman.—On page xxvii there is a note paragraph 75, by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, which reads:

Losses by Default, etc.

“The losses borne on the Vote for the year ended 31st March, 1936, amounted to £911 8s. 3d., of which £887 14s. 5d. was charged to sub-head H (2), and £23 13s. 10d. to sub-head O (6). A classified schedule of the losses is appended to each of these sub-heads. Particulars are also given of 18 cases in which cash shortages or misappropriations, amounting in all to £716 3s. 10d., were discovered; the sums in question were made good, and no charge to public funds was necessary.”

Mr. McGrath.—In page 198 there is a list given of cases where the sums were made good, and there has been no charge on the public fund. In page 199, particulars are given where it was necessary to have charges placed on the public funds.

624. Chairman.—These are all losses by default?

Mr. O’Hegarty.—Yes.

625. Does anybody want to ask Mr. O’Hegarty any question about these losses by default? I think it would be a matter of interest to learn from Mr. O’Hegarty the circumstances under which postage stamps are presented to His Majesty the King, the National Museum and the Director-General, Indian Postal Services and the Chinese Postal Administration?

Mr. O’Hegarty.—Well, it is a matter of courtesy. We have always given to the King any new stamps issued. His Majesty was a very keen collector and it was a matter of courtesy to give him two sets of the stamps issued. With regard to the others we have at all times requests from the heads of other postal administrations asking could we give them stamps. We have got permission from the Department of Finance to give these stamps as a matter of courtesy. It is purely a matter of courtesy.

626. I think it is a very gracious gesture?—Yes, we always give our issues of stamps to the National Museum. We get from Geneva three copies of every stamp issued everywhere. One of these stamps go to the Museum and is kept there permanently as part of the collection.

627. What becomes of the other stamps after you get them—are they displayed anywhere or can the public see them?— They can see them in the National Museum.

628. What becomes of your copies?— We keep a copy of each also in the office.

629. Beyond the people who get that does anybody else ever see these stamps? —They are available, if wanted.

630. When did this practice begin?— We only got them when we got a separate administration ourselves.

631. Did the British take away the copies of the stamps that had accumulated up to that in these collections?—The Dublin Post Office never had them in the old days.

632. They went to London, I suppose? —Yes.

633. Chairman.—Note 76 on page xxvii reads:—

“Claims Abandoned.

“As shown in a note to the account claims amounting to £40 4s. in respect of damage to Post Office vehicles were abandoned during the year either as irrecoverable or as a result of compromise settlements with the insurance companies concerned. During the year there were also eight traffic accidents involving damage to official vehicles in which no claims against members of the public arose. The total amount of such damage was £38 13s. 10d.

Mr. McGrath.—On page 207. some further details are given and there are some details also on page 208. These matters are reported for the information of the Dáil. There is no criticism.

634. Chairman.—Note 77—Civil Aviation, Cost of Equipment of a Wireless Station—reads:—

“As stated in the relevant explanation in the account a sum of £1,266 6s. has been charged to sub-head L (3) (Engineering Contract Work) in respect of the cost of equipment of a wireless station established for purposes of civil aviation. It is proposed to provide for expenditure of a similar nature in future years from a special sub-head.”

Mr. McGrath.—Provision is made for that purpose in the Vote for Industry and Commerce, but, in accordance with the instructions of the Department of Finance the Post Office took over the service and will charge it in their account in future.

635. Chairman.—So that the Post Office will have control of this civil aviation wireless station, Mr. O’Hegarty?—Yes. We have to put it up and operate it.

636. It is proposed to make it permanently part of the Post Office property? —Yes.

637. Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General:—

“78. Sums paid in respect of the pensions of officers who were not included in the staffs transferred to the Irish Provisional Government under the terms of Article 7 (1) (b) of the Provisional Government (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1922, continued to be charged to a suspense account. The total amount so charged up to 31st March, 1936, was £2,970, 10s. 3d.

“In paragraph 67 of my last report, I referred to a case of a clerical officer who was in receipt of a pension, the payment of which was being charged to a suspense account pending the passing of the required legislation. The amount charged to suspense at 31st March, 1936, was £93 12s. 7d.

“The grant of the pensions referred to in the two preceding sections of this paragraph has been validated by the Superannuation Act, 1936, which came into operation on 14th August, 1936.

638. Chairman.—These are matters to which the Committee drew the Government’s attention in previous reports and the whole thing has now been disposed of by the Act of 1936?

Mr. McGrath.—Yes.

639. Chairman.—Paragraphs 79, 80 and 81 of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General appear to be purely formal. Certain tests were carried out and they were found to be satisfactory. I assume we may take those notes as disposed of.

Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General:—

“82. A test examination was applied to the accounts of the Post Office factory with satisfactory results. The expenditure on manufacturing jobs in the financial year, including work in progress on 31st March, 1936, amounted to £15,695; the expenditure on repair works (other than repairs to mechanical transport), amounted to £9,799, and the expenditure on mechanical transport repairs to £2,242.”

640. Chairman.—What are the repair works, Mr. O’Hegarty—what is their nature?—They include repairs to telephonic and telegraphic apparatus in the main.

641. And the mechanical transport repairs?—That refers to various aspects of motor vehicles—overhauling and repairs.

642. Are you satisfied that this work is done more economically by the Post Office factory than by giving it out to contract? I think so. The telephonic and telegraphic work could not be done by contract; it has to be done in the Post Office factory. Before the change of Government it was all sent to the other side and done in a factory there. There was no firm equipped here to do it then.

643. You are satisfied the mechanical transport repair work is more economically done in the Post Office factory than it would be by contractors?—Yes.

644. Deputy O Briain.—Does this refer to motor vehicles here in Dublin and vicinity or do you do the Post Office repair work for the whole country in this factory?—Not minor repairs; only major repairs are done here.

645. Chairman.—Coming now to the Vote, arising out of sub-head A, I want to ask whether you are satisfied, Mr. O’Hegarty, that you have a sufficient staff in the telephone exchanges in Dublin. For the last six months if i dial “O” or “31” or “39” or any of those numbers calling for the telephone operator or the supervisor, literally, and I have repeatedly timed it, from one to two minutes elapse before you get any reply at all and it is extremely difficult to address these ladies with the courtesy to which they are unquestionably entitled if you have been kept a protracted period waiting when you are in a hurry?—All I can say is that the general staff necessities of the Post Office are constantly under review and we are satisfied that the staff is adequate for reasonable needs.

646. Have you received complaints about the undue delay in answering those kinds of calls?—We are always receiving complaints—that is inevitable in the Post Office system.

647. But you have not received an unusual amount of complaints in this connection?—Nothing to justify the supposition that the staff is inadequate.

648. What is the most dramatic form of complaint that you can make to the Post Office? If you smash the telephone instrument or tore it out of the wall, would that stir the Department?—Oh, no.

649. Deputy McMenamin.—That would be futile?—If you did that you would probably find yourself in the courts.

650. Chairman.—I must say the Department answers every letter with extreme politeness and does investigate the complaint, but really human patience will some day explode throughout the City of Dublin?—You cannot expect the Post Office to staff its offices all the time at what you might call the busy ten-minute spaces. That would be completely and wholly uneconomic. There are rush hours, periods when no provision that you can make will give an instantaneous service of all sorts and that is inevitable in any commercial undertaking. It cannot be done.

651. I am not at all sure whether I am right in impressing you with this matter at the present moment, but believe me that whatever steps are necessary to ensure prompt replying to the telephone, for the sake of the nervous systems of the citizens of Saorstát Eireann something ought to be done?— I would not altogether accept that. My answer to that would be that the telephone service is reasonably prompt, with the proviso that it does not pretend to give instantaneous service all the time. You cannot give it, you cannot provide for rushes. The whole telephone service is constantly under supervision and any defects that arise will be taken up as they come under notice.

652. There have been complaints about individual exchanges that you cannot get, such as Blackrock or Drumcondra or Dun Laoghaire. That is not the substance of my complaint. My complaint is rather getting the officers in the Central Office? —I quite understand. This is a thing that goes back quite a long time. Have you ever, when you have been waiting for one or two minutes, taken out your watch and timed yourself?

653. Yes, and furthermore, you know the bell that rings, you hear the sound, and I have patiently counted those sounds up and when the reply came I stated in the sweetest accents: “Madam, this bell has rung 34 times before you answered,” and she always replies in an equally sweet accent: “I shall report the matter”?—I can only come to the conclusion that you have been unlucky. You must have been born on the 13th of the month.

Chairman.—Thousands of my friends have been told the same thing.

Deputy O Briain.—The experience of the Chairman is more or less general; it it not confined to the Chairman alone.

Chairman.—God bless you for those kind words, Deputy.

Deputy O Briain.—Probably there are times at which it is not reasonable to expect prompt service. Of course we do not think of that when we are waiting for an urgent telephone call. I expect the Department has its own difficulties. As Mr. O’Hegarty says, it would not be economic to provide a staff that will deal with a rush situation.

Chairman.—I have no doubt when Mr. O’Hegarty finds Deputy O Briain and myself of the one mind it will so astonish him as to burn into his mind the nature of our complaint.

654. Deputy McMenamin.—What is the practical obstacle to giving immediate service in the exchange?—There is no practical obstacle and in most cases immediate service is given.

655. It is all due to the amount of work in the exchange?—It may be due to a certain rush. Of course if you increase your subscribers you increase your calls and then the line will be occupied considerably. We have to keep abreast of the time and we have to keep in touch with things and we try to do our best.

656. Chairman.—Sub-head C relates partly to telephone kiosks?—Yes.

657.—Is there any definite policy as to where telephone kiosks are to be erected or are they put up wherever the Post Office makes up its mind the necessity for one arises?—They are put up if the Post Office thinks there is a need in a certain neighbourhood for a telephone kiosk, if it would be an advantage to the public and the Post Office. Then we have to consult the local authority and agree with them on a site.

658. Has it ever been suggested to the Department that it would be desirable to erect a telephone kiosk at every taxi stand, inasmuch as that would provide a preliminary income for incoming calls in any case?—I think we have kiosks in the neighbourhood of most taxi stands.

659. The next time you are thinking of that, perhaps you will mark down Gardiner’s Row as a suitable site for a kiosk? —Very well.

660. Deputy O Briain.—Have you ever considered the question of extending this service of telephone kiosks to provincial cities, such, for instance, as Limerick?— I think we have some kiosks in the Provinces.

661.* Deputy Goulding.—Have you any in Waterford?—I cannot say definitely, but I thought they were in the principal cities. I will take a note of it.

662. Chairman.—Under sub-head G (3) —Manufacture of Stamps, etc.—what was the gumming contract which delayed the delivery of merchandise?—That refers to the gum for stamp paper.

663. There was some difficulty raised by the Customs authorities?—Yes, the Customs held it up.

664. Deputy Crowley.—Are we to take it that all the clothing material required for uniforms in the Post Office is of Irish manufacture?—Yes.

665. Chairman.—On sub-head P, how did the over-estimation arise in connection with those deficiencies withheld by the British Government?—There are, of course, variations with regard to superannuating payments for the reason that you do not know how many are coming in.

666. You mean that certain pension holders die, and that then the British Government would not have been liable for their pensions?—Yes.

667. Would you say what sub-head T 13 refers to? It looks like a token Vote?—It is a token Vote. It arises in connection with the famous Wigg-Cochrane case where civil servants claim that their conditions are worsened. There is a token Vote every year, but no expense arises if there is no claim.

668. Deputy McMenamin.—What is the explanation with regard to sub-head T 14?—That is a service that we render in connection with British mails for the Six Counties going through Dublin.

669. Do you handle them?—They come in on the mail boat to Dunlaoghaire, and then go from Westland Row to Amiens Street. We put them on the train.

VOTE 64—WIRELESS BROADCASTING.

Mr. P. S. O’Hegarty further examined.

670. Chairman.—There is no note from the Comptroller and Auditor-General on this Vote. With regard to sub-head D— travelling expenses—is provision made there only for the travelling expenses of staff, or does it include travelling expenses for artistes brought from a distance?—It includes artistes’ travelling expenses also.

671. In the event of an artiste being brought from Donegal to give a performance at the Dublin studio, does he receive travelling expenses in addition to his fee?—As a general rule if we bring a provincial artiste to Dublin we pay an inclusive fee.

672. Deputy McMenamin.—Do you give the artiste something to cover outlay?— The fee, in our opinion, would be sufficient to cover outlay?

673. I take it that would include the cost of rail fare and hotel expenses?— Yes.

674. Is the fee fixed before the artiste comes to Dublin?—Yes.

675. Chairman.—In connection with sub-head F, there is a note to say that the saving on this sub-head was due to deferment of expenditure proposed for the stabilisation of Dublin and Cork transmitters. I do not know what that means, but have you received any complaints, not about the quality of the entertainment provided, but about the quality of the actual diffusion of the programme and its reception by receiving sets?— Yes, we always get those complaints, but they should be very much lessened by the recent installation of the power station of 100 K.W.

676. I am sorry to tell you that my experience has been that they have been very much increased; that, while the power has been increased, the quality has been immensely decreased, and that is confirmed to me by a number of persons who deal in radio sets and who call on persons listening-in to programmes. They find that they can get foreign programmes with an excellent quality of reproduction, but that Athlone is blurred and booming?—I have no technical knowledge of broadcasting, but I would suggest that one reason for that, might be that the sets required adjustment. No matter what you do in connection with broadcasting, there will always be spots where the reception will not be good from various stations, due to physical configuration and other causes.

677. You are satisfied in your mind that the plant and equipment have nothing to do with the unsatisfactory nature of the transmissions?—I can only say that the Post Office engineers do their best to give a proper service, but, as I have said, there are certain things in connection with the service which you cannot control, such as physical configuration, storms and tramway lines. Anything may upset reception.

678. Has it ever been thought desirable, under the heading of maintenance, to secure the services of observers throughout Saorstát Eireann and, indeed, in Great Britain, with a view to reporting to Athlone what the quality of the transmission is?—The Athlone station itself has broadcasted time and time again requests to listeners-in to report what sort of service they are getting: to report faults and so on.

679. Have you ever considered paying a retainer to individuals in selected areas to make such reports?—No.

680. The British broadcasting station does?—I was not aware of it. They have a certain amount of money that they have to get rid of. We have not.

681. We are not doing too badly here. Are we not making a profit of over £100,000 on wireless?—No.

Deputy Goulding.—The profit on the Post Office service I understood to be £30,000.

Chairman.—I said over a £100,000 on wireless.

Deputy O Briain.—Where is it?

682. Chairman.—It does not come in here but I can assure the Deputy that that is so.

Mr. O’Hegarty.—The Post Office is not making a profit of anything like that.

Mr. McGrath.—The Chairman is, I think, including the duty on wireless sets.

Mr. O’Hegarty.—Yes, but I did not want to say that.

683. Chairman.—Mr. O’Hegarty says that the Post Office is not making that profit. We must not press that question as another Department is concerned. I suggest that maintenance is not being properly done in the absence of provision being made for securing adequate reports: reports on the quality and the diffusion of the programmes?—I will take a note of that.

The witness withdrew.

The Committee adjourned to Wednesday the 26th May at 11 a.m.

* See Appendix XII.

* See Appendix XIII.