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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 2adh Meitheamh, 1937.Wednesday, 2nd June, 1937.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
Deputy Smith.—In the absence of the Chairman, I move that Deputy McMenamin take the Chair. Deputy Goulding. — I second the motion. Deputy McMenamin took the Chair. Mr. S. Mag Craith (Ard-Sgrúdóir); Mr. T. S. C. Dagg and Mr. C. S. Almond called and examined.VOTE 67—EXTERNAL AFFAIRS.Mr. J. P. Walshe called and examined.822. Chairman.—There is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General in connection with this Vote, which reads as follows:— “Sub-head B (5)—Repatriation of Destitute Subjects of Saorstát Eireann. “In each case of repatriation the person concerned signs an undertaking to repay the expenditure incurred by the State. A case came to notice where recovery had not been effected and in response to my request the sanction of the Department of Finance was obtained for the write-off of the loss. In other cases arising in previous years amounts due to the State appear to have been treated as irrecoverable, and I have asked to be furnished with a statement of the expenditure involved and have requested that the authority of the Department of Finance should now be sought for the write-off of the amount in each case.” Mr. McGrath.—The Department have gone to the Department of Finance for sanction in connection with this particular case. It amounted to £36 7s. 8d. In the other cases, arising in previous years, we thought it right that the Department should inform the Department of Finance of the amounts they found to be irrecoverable, and I think it is intended in the future that a note should be appended to the account showing the amounts written off under this head. 823. Deputy Haslett.—Does this refer to persons we are sending out or to persons coming in? Chairman.—It refers to the repatriation of people abroad. 824. Deputy Haslett.—Where do you get that undertaking for repayment, Mr. Walshe?—There is a certain procedure in connection with this. The person who finds himself destitute abroad generally appeals to the local representative for help to get home, and the matter is referred to headquarters. If it is considered to be a good case, sanction is given for supplying the person with the necessary money to get home, and at the time the money is given, the person concerned gives an undertaking and signs a formal promise that he will repay the money. 825. Of course, that is not a very great guarantee that he will repay?—No. Of course, the person concerned is destitute. 826. Chairman.—I take it that most of these people are destitute?—Yes, and they remain destitute, unfortunately. There have been very few cases of the fulfilment of the promise. 827. The second part of the note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General reads as follows:— “Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1935. “This Act became law on the 10th April, 1935. Fees for registration and certificate of nationality amounting to £5 15s. were received in cash at Head Office and have been brought to credit as Exchequer extra receipts. In addition, fees amounting to £17 2s. 6d. were collected during the year at offices abroad by means of stamps.” Now, on the Vote itself, I see under sub-head B (2), Travelling and Subsistence Allowances. Is that for people abroad or for officials here? Mr. McGrath.—It is for our representatives abroad. 828. Chairman.—How does that arise? Mr. McGrath. — Our representatives abroad have to do travelling in the countries to which they are attached. 829. Chairman.—On page 231, I see an item of £500 in connection with a fee from Imperial Communications Advisory Committee. What is that? Mr. McGrath.—Our representative in London gets that and hands it over. Is not that so, Mr. Walsh?—Yes. It is a Wireless and Cables Committee. The sum of £500 is given automatically to each member, and in our case it is handed over to the Exchequer. VOTE 68— LEAGUE OF NATIONS.Mr. J. P. Walshe called.No question. VOTE 57—INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE.Mr. J. Leydon called and examined.830. Chairman.—Paragraph 68 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General states:— “The amount provided in the Estimates under this heading was £24,000 to cover expenditure on the exploration of the Arigna and Slieve Amierin area and of the Slieveardagh area. The expenditure for the year, however, amounted to £4,487 2s. 4d. only, for the reasons given in the account and was made up of £1,496 1s. 9d. for the Arigna and Slieve Amierin area and £2,991 0s. 7d. for the Slieveardagh area.” There is a note on page 177 which further explains the difference between the provision and the actual expenditure. Note 1 on that page states:— “Expenditure at Arigna and Slieve Amierin was less than was anticipated owing to the circumstances that (a) the final report by the contractors, which it had been anticipated would be available before the 31st March, 1936, was not presented until after that date. Consequently the amount which became due under the contract on the presentation of the final report was not paid within the financial year; (b) fewer borings were found necessary than was originally estimated. It was anticipated that the shaft sinking operations at Slieveardagh, which are being carried out by direct labour, would be commenced, and have made considerable progress, before the end of the financial year. For technical reasons it was not found possible to commence sinking the shaft until a later date so that direct labour charges which fell to be met within the financial year were much less than the provision made. Expenditure under this sub-head includes salary, travelling, etc., expenses of the resident Mining Engineer.” Has the exploration part of this work been completed yet?—In Arigna, yes. 831. Has it led anywhere?—We have got a very useful report, and the results of the borings have been placed in the Geological Survey Office for inspection by anybody who is interested and wishes to see them. 832. Is there a copy in the Dáil?—No, sir. It is in the Geological Survey Office. The conclusion to which the Government came after considering the report was that the results of the investigation did not warrant any active steps by the Government with a view to mineral development over and above what is being done there at the present time. 833. Chairman.—Paragraph 69 of the report states: “With the approval of the Department of Finance, a contract has been placed for the supply and erection of the plant and equipment for five industrial alcohol distilleries. The payments which fell due during the year, under the terms of the contract, amounted to £28,164, and are charged in the account. I understand that the acceptance of the contractor’s tender will involve the payment to another company of a fee for a licence to use that company’s process in the operation of the distilleries.” Was that payment set forth in the contract or in the tender?—It was made clear in the tender. 834. Deputy Smith.—Will it be a yearly fee?—It was a lump sum. I am speaking from recollection, but I think there was a choice between paying a yearly royalty and a lump sum, and it was decided to pay a lump sum. 835. Is it any harm to ask what the amount will be?—I have some difficulty about giving the amount for publication. Deputy Haslett.—Why is there a limit of time? 836. Chairman.—Is there a limit of time? Do you not buy out the rights as far as the Free State is concerned?—Yes, for a limited period, 10 or 15 years. The ordinary life of a patent in this country is 15 years. The patent will have expired by that time. 837. Is this a particular type of process? —Yes. This particular process is called the Melle process. 838. The same conditions would not have attached to any other process?— There was a choice only between two processes, and the Advisory Board, after technical investigation, came to the conclusion that this particular tender and this particular process offered the most attractive proposition. 839. Would these people not permit you to buy this process outright, as far as the use of it in the Free State is concerned, for a sum of money?—Yes. By the payment of a lump sum we secured the complete right to use it in this country for the period of the life of the patent. It covers the life of the patent. 840. The next paragraph states:— “Owing to delay in the erection of the distilleries it was not found possible to avail of the services of four candidates selected for training abroad as assistant-managers of the distilleries on completion of their period of training. In these circumstances the Department of Finance sanctioned the payment to each trainee, in the event of his being unable to obtain other employment, of £3 per week, inclusive, as from the completion of training pending his appointment as assistant manager. As stated in a note to the account, the expenditure under this head amounted to £124 10s. 0d.” Mr. McGrath. — This being in the nature of a nugatory payment, I brought it to the attention of the Dáil. 841. Deputy Haslett.—Is that payment being continued in the next financial year? —That payment has been completed. It is final. These men were taken on into definite appointments at the expiration of the period covered by the nugatory payment. It was because the work was not available for them, at the completion of training, that these payments were made. It was really difficult to see at what point the scheme would be ready for the employment of these men, but no chances could be taken, and they were sent for training. Then there were delays in the completion of the work and the work was not available when the men’s training was completed. 842 We have not been producing in these factories as yet?—Production has not actually started, but the staffing of the factories had to precede production. 843. Deputy Smith.—This was only a payment during the transition period?— Yes, before they were taken on regular appointments. 844. Chairman.—These accounts cover the period 1935-6 and these men are still being paid?—Yes, but not on the same basis. The posts for which they were training became available a considerable time ago. They have been filling these posts and have been paid the remuneration to which they are entitled. 845. They are really in appointments?— Yes. 846. The Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General continues:— “In addition to the expenditure of £28,164 and £124 10s. referred to above, the charge to the sub-head also includes payments in respect of salaries (including salary of managing director), printing of Bills of Quantities in connection with the building of the distilleries, travelling, subsistence and incidental expenses, and to the Office of Works for rent, rates, etc I have asked that the authority of the Department of Finance be sought for an expenditure of £14 5s. 5d., included in the sum recouped to the Office of Works, incurred on preliminary work carried out on an order subsequently cancelled.” Mr. McGrath.—The first part of the sub-paragraph is merely for the information of Deputies. The last part has reference to an outlay of £14 5s. 5d. about which I wrote to the Department on the 12th of November, stating that “in view of the circumstances in which the above-mentioned recoupment became necessary, it is requested that the facts may be reported to the Department of Finance and covering authority sought for the payment.” I did not get a reply to that. Mr. Leydon.—That matter has been the subject of correspondence with the Department of Finance. We have now been able to satisfy the Department of Finance and we have got covering authority for the payment within the last week. Deputy Smith.—It would not be in order, I suppose, to ask Mr. Leydon what progress has been made by the five distilleries in getting contracts? Chairman.—I think it would. 847. Deputy Smith.—What progress has been made in getting contracts for supplies from farmers?—I am afraid I could not answer that. 848. Chairman.—You are referring to the current year?—I am afraid that, without notice, I could not give any precise information in regard to that matter. We have here in brackets the words “including salary of Managing Director.” Since the inauguration of this scheme, that is to say at the time of the putting into operation of the scheme before the factories were built at all, was this man appointed as Managing Director?—Yes. It was part of the original agreement. It is obviously very desirable, when launching a scheme of that kind, to have somebody who understands it and will be able to take responsibility for advising the Department about the various stages in connection with the erection of the factories, the placing of contracts, and so on. We had to have somebody competent to perform those duties. Chairman. — Clearly, would not one think that was a matter for the architect? Deputy Smith.—The architects here would not know very much about that business. Chairman.—That is what he is being paid for. How could he draw a plan? Deputy Smith.—He could draw a plan when he is told what is required. Chairman.—Well, he should not be paid at all when he does not know what he is doing. Deputy Smith.—I would venture to say that the architects we have here would not know such a lot about it. 849. Mr. McGrath.—Under the Industrial Alcohol Act, 1934, the Minister was empowered to do certain things—to proceed with the making of industrial alcohol. The Dáil empowered him to do what he has done. This is a new industry in this country, and it was necessary for the Minister to go outside this country to get the best advice. Mr. Leydon.—The money was voted by the Dáil. Mr. McGrath.—The money was voted by the Dáil and there is no criticism there. Mr. Leydon.—I rather thought there was. I rather thought the Chairman was suggesting that the Managing Director should not have been appointed. 850. Deputy Goulding.—The Managing Director was on the work immediately on the inception of the scheme? Mr. Leydon.—He was. Chairman.—He was not an architect. Deputy Goulding. — Obviously the Managing Director had to be there. Those people had to function right away, and had immediately to get an architect to draw the plans. Obviously you could not expect the Board to act as their own architects. Deputy Smith.—I notice, Mr. Chairman, that you have a good deal of confidence in engineers and architects. Chairman.—When you pay an architect to do a certain job he undertakes to do that job. Deputy Goulding.—It was the Board employed the architects. 851. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has the following note under sub-head L-Turf Development Board:— “Provision was made in the Estimates for grants-in-aid to the Board for (a) administrative expenses and (b) general peat fuel development. During the year issues amounting to £17,500 in respect of (a) and £9,500 in respect of (b) were made with the consent of the Minister for Finance. “In addition, provision was made in sub-head L (3) for repayable advances to the Board for purposes connected with general peat fuel development, and advances totalling £3,419 14s. 3d. were made during the year under conditions approved by the Department of Finance. “The total repayments by the Board amounted to £2,870 12s. 1d., which is credited to appropriations-in-aid. This sum includes £870 12s. 1d. received under the arrangement referred to in my last report, by which a levy of 1/2 a ton is made on each ton of turf sold with the object of recovering for the Exchequer within a period of about three years the cost of the sacks taken over. I am in communication with the Accounting Officer regarding the present position of the collection of the levy.” Have you got the Accounting Officer’s reply in regard to that? Mr. McGrath.—Not yet. Mr. Leydon.—That is still the subject of discussion between ourselves and the Turf Development Board. 852. Chairman.—And, of course, this levy of 1/2 is being according as the peat is being produced?—The money is being collected as quickly as we can get it. 853. Deputy Goulding.—In the case of sacks which are destroyed in the course of the operations of the Board, are they bound to pay for them?—They have to be written off. 854. What about sacks which are not returned—sacks which are lost, for instance?—The present arrangement contemplates that all the sacks which were taken over by the Board should be paid for and it is the Board’s responsibility to ensure that, as far as possible, sacks shall be returned to it 855. Chairman.—I suppose this levy of 1/2 a ton is to pay for the sacks?—That is intended to include sufficient provision to cover losses and depreciation. 856. The Comptroller and Auditor-General’s note under the heading “Exchequer Extra Receipts” reads as follows:— “The receipts of £72,911 14s. 11d. under the Cement Act, 1933, relate to fees at the rate of 5/- per ton on cement imported into the Saorstát under licences issued by the Minister for Industry and Commerce from 14th May, 1935, when the Act was brought into operation. The receipts under the Agricultural Products (Cereals) Act, 1933, during the year amounted to £6,909 3s. 3d. These receipts represent levies on holders of milling licences who mill in excess of quotas fixed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce.” Do you deal with those milling licences? Mr. Leydon.—Yes. 857. Chairman.—We will now turn to the Vote on page 174. In regard to sub-head H (1)—Grant-in-Aid of the Expenses of the International Labour Organisation (League of Nations), that would occur annually? Is that so?—Yes. 858. Sub-head H (2) deals with the travelling and incidental expenses? Is that in connection with sub-head H (1)? —Yes. 859. In regard to sub-head J—Production of Industrial Alcohol—how is it that you expended only £33,000 out of the grant of £120,000? It depended on the progress of the work—is that it?—It depended on the progress of the work, and it is due to some extent to the fact that when we issued our invitation for tenders we got no tender from an Irish firm. We re-advertised. Then there were various delays at one time or another in getting on with this scheme. These delays were responsible for the fact that the expenditure was so much less than the amount estimated 860. We now come to the Prices Commission, and sub-head K (1) deals with salaries, wages and allowances. Is that a voluntary Board? Other than expenses, are they paid any salaries?—The Chairman is paid £500 a year on a part-time basis. The reason for that, I understand, is that he has to provide additional staff in his own office—that is to say, the office of the Tourist Development Association. 861. At his own expense?—Yes. This remuneration does not represent any addition to his income. 862. He has a staff. The members of the staff are set out at page 260 of the Book of Estimates?—Yes. 863. On sub-head K (2)—Travelling Expenses—is that for members who live outside the city?—It represents the expenses of members of the Commission who live in the country. Two of them live in the country. It also represents provincial witnesses who have to attend sittings of the Commission and some of the staff who have to travel in connection with investigations. It was also intended to provide for the possibility that the Commission might think fit, in certain circumstances, to hold sittings outside Dublin. In fact, that particular contingency has not arisen. 864. Chairman.—Under sub-head L (2), in connection with the Turf Development Board, the Grant-in-Aid is given over to the Board and is not subject to audit. Mr. McGrath.—It is a Grant-in-Aid. 865. Chairman.—Sub-head M (6)— Research Grants to Students by the Industrial Research Council—are these given to the university?—No, to the students on the recommendation of the Industrial Research Council, which set up a special committee to deal with applications. The Department of Education and the Department of Industry and Commerce have representatives on the committee. The committee considers applications from students on the merits —their financial circumstances and other matters. 866. Are these graduate students?— Usually they are graduates. I could not say definitely off-hand if they are invariably graduates. I think they are. 867. Deputy Goulding.—These sums are not paid on results?—No. 868. They are just paid to aid them?— The committee satisfies itself by the record of the student, and from the reports of the Professors, that the giving of the grant is justified. 869. Chairman.—You are not clear as to whether these students who get this money are graduates or not?—I think they are generally graduates. I cannot say definitely that they have degrees before they get the research grants. 870. Would it not be important that they should have all the theoretical training they could get before being put on to this specialised work?—I agree. The committee satisfies itself on the point, and it consists of a number of university professors. 871. Deputy Goulding.— Under sub-head M (5)—Aids to Research Workers and special Research Committees—you did not spend any of the £500 provided there? Apparently there were no results from the research work there?—That is a different matter. Deputy Haslett.—Was this in connection with peat? 872. Chairman.—Not necessarily. Are there new rules under the Mines and Minerals Act, 1931?—We have not issued any new rules recently. 873. Then you have no rules?—I am not quite sure what rules you are thinking of. 874. Under the Mines and Minerals Act, 1931?—Are you thinking of fees, leases, dead rents or royalties? 875. Deputy Smith.—For some time it has been difficult to get a lease in certain of these cases?—That is a very serious difficulty. They are Land Commission rules. They are affected by a recent Supreme Court judgment. That particular difficulty has not yet been resolved, and it may involve new legislation. It is a very complicated situation. 876. Chairman.—I should like if you would press that matter forward?—I have been pressing it forward. 877. Your position is that nothing can be done with regard to any of these cases. Take, for example, the position in connection with a granite quarry the whole business is held up. Take another matter the intensive production of borytes in England. There is a big demand for what is known as bog ore, but you cannot issue licences to raise or sell it?—I know that; I am well aware of the position. VOTE 58—TRANSPORT SERVICES.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.878. Paragraph 72 — Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report. Sub-head A-Payments in respect of Steamer Services. “The sum of £300 charged to this sub-head was paid to the Galway Bay Steamboat Co., Ltd., with Department of Finance sanction, and represented the subsidy for the year ended 31st December, 1935, payable under the term of the draft agreement referred to in paragraph 56 of last year’s report. I understand that the agreement has not yet been completed.” Mr. McGrath.—The reason I wrote that paragraph was that the draft agreement was not completed. I understand that the Department were in a legal difficulty then, but that they have righted that difficulty by an Act which has been passed since and the matter is now in order. 879. Chairman.—Is there any train running from Buncrana to Carndonagh, or from Letterkenny to Burtonport? Mr. Leydon.—There certainly was in the year to which the accounts relate. VOTE 59—RAILWAY TRIBUNAL.Mr. J. Leydon called.No question. VOTE 60—MARINE SERVICES.Mr. J. Leydon called.No question. VOTE 61—UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE AND UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE.Mr. J. Leydon further examined.880. Paragraph 73 — Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report. Sub-head J-Unemployment Assistance. “My examination of these payments had not been completed at the date of my report, but so far as it had been carried out, the results were satisfactory.” Paragraph 73—Comptroller and Auditor-General’s Report. Sub-head K—Appropriations-in-Aid. “The receipts during the year from certain local authorities under Section 26 of the Unemployment Assistance Act, 1933, amounted to £192,796 6s. 2d. These receipts are based on the rateable value at the beginning of the immediately preceding financial year of each county borough or urban area concerned. I have inquired as to the steps taken to verify that the amounts received were those properly payable under the terms of the section referred to.” Mr. McGrath.—As to paragraph 73, I stated that, at the date of my report, the examination had not been completed. My report was dated 30th January this year. I had an examination since and I am quite satisfied that everything is in order regarding the payments out in connection with unemployment assistance. As to paragraph 74, the receipts are based on the rateable value at the beginning of the immediately preceding financial year. We find that the local bodies are not paying on that basis, but rather upon the basis of the effective valuation. There are certain valuations in each district which do not pay the full rate. Deputies, I am sure, know the cause of that, and it is a matter to be cleared up The Act states definitely that the receipts are based on the rateable value at the beginning of the immediately preceding financial year. I understand that the Department have the matter under consideration and that it may be necessary to bring in legislation later on. At all events the position at the moment is that the Audit Office cannot give a complete check of the amounts received. 881. Deputy Smith. — You think it should be calculated on the actual valuation rather than the effective valuation? Mr. McGrath.—According to the reading of the Act, the actual meaning would be that it should be on the actual valuation as furnished. 882. Deputy Smith.—How many factors enter into making a difference between the actual and the effective valuation—housing would be one? Mr. McGrath.—Yes. 883. Deputy Smith.—Are there any other factors? Mr. McGrath.—Gradual rating scheme —that is your point; Government property, vacant buildings, lands, railways, half annual rents. It is an understood thing that they only get half the rates in certain cases. 884. Deputy Haslett.—How are railways exempt? Mr. McGrath.—I am only quoting exceptions that are made by different bodies. Some of them pay the whole amount; others make deductions and include in these deductions such things as gradual rating, railways, etc. I am only giving that as a case in point; I cannot give the details. Deputy Haslett.—The railways take the other view —that they are pushed to the utmost penny by us. 885. Deputy Smith.—What are the others? Mr. McGrath. — Vacant buildings, Government buildings, lands. I think we should take vacant buildings and make that our starting point. The Act says: “rateable value as furnished by the Valuation Office.” The local authorities seem to think that they are entitled to deduct for vacant buildings. 886. Chairman.—They do not collect the rates. Of course they are rateable. Mr. McGrath.—That is my point—that they are rateable. Mr. Leydon.—That is just the point on which the difficulty arises. The Act uses the phrase, “rateable to the poor rate.” There is room for a difference of opinion as to what is the precise effect of that, so we referred the matter to the Attorney-General. 887. Deputy Smith.—As to Government buildings, I understand that while the Government do not pay rates directly, they pay rates indirectly to local authorities. Mr. McGrath.—Not the full rate. 888. Deputy Smith.—Is it not supposed to be something almost equivalent to what the rate would be? Mr. McGrath.—Yes. Mr. Leydon.—Grants in lieu of rates. 889. Deputy Smith.—That being so, the local authorities could not claim to deduct it? Mr. McGrath.—You asked me for the headings under which they might deduct and from the information I had I merely gave the items I quoted as examples. 890. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General has now got the Attorney-General’s opinion and can work on that. Mr. McGrath.—I have the Attorney-General’s opinion here. Chairman.—We cannot do anything further with it now. 891. Deputy Haslett.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General is concerned with an accepted basis. He is not concerned with whether it is gross or nett, as long as it is an accepted basis. Mr. McGrath.—Yes, we must get agreement upon it. 892. Deputy Haslett.—What Associations are referred to under sub-head H? I see that there were some payments made to those. The sum is £152 1s. 10d.? —I could not give you the names of the Associations, but the Act provides that the Minister may make arrangements with an Association such as a trades union, which gives unemployment benefit to its members and, under these powers, we are recouping the Associations for the expenditure, plus a small charge for administration. The charge is very small. The arrangement is availed of only to a very limited extent. 893. Deputy Crowley.—In connection with sub-head I, “Advances to Work-people for Fares,” you paid £22 1s. 3d. How does that arise? —Well, if the labour exchange finds a job for a worker and the worker has to go some distance and has not the fare, we advance the fare and recover it afterwards from the worker or his employer. 894. Chairman. — Is sub-head H to administer benefits to worpeople—could you tell the Committee how in fact the money is expended?—The fact is that really the Association is acting as an agent for the Department in making payments which are equivalent to and in lieu of unemployment benefits. 895. Deputy Smith.—How do you check up on that? How do you know whether these people have got the payments?— They have to vouch them. Mr. McGrath.—I think it happens in this way: that there are certain trades union bodies paying their members more than the Unemployment Fund gives them. These bodies have to furnish details afterwards. The Unemployment Fund does not lose on this arrangement at all. 896. Chairman.—They have to satisfy you that the men are unemployed?—Yes, they have to satisfy us on that, and it saves the men going to the agency and it saves a certain amount of time and labour at the exchange. 897. Deputy Haslett.—Have you any scheme whereby either a body or persons would have a scheme of Unemployment Benefit that you would supplement—do you supplement any unemployment scheme?—Do you mean by payments from the Unemployment Fund? 898. Yes?—No, we never pay subsidies from the Unemployment Fund. VOTE 62—INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL PROPERTY REGISTRATION OFFICE.Mr. J. Leydon called.No question. VOTE 40—CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS.Mr. W. Smyth called and examined.899. Chairman. — This is rather an administrative Department looking after Trust Funds, I take it. Mr. Smyth, could you give the Committee any approximate idea of the total funds you administer?—Yes, we hold a total of £1,343,000 and the amount is increasing yearly by approximately £30,000. 900. This is under the control of the Attorney-General, is it not?—No, it is under the control of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests. 901. But you act under the advice of the Attorney-General?—No, the Board is independent. The Attorney-General does not come into the matter at all. Although he is the custodian of other charities, we have our own charity law. We may seek his advice or probably ask him to take action in certain cases. 902. Deputy Goulding. — Where does the yearly increase come from?—Well, we got quite recently the administration of a private charity which amounts to £30,000 alone. In the case of that charity the trustees fell out and the court directed the funds to be sent to us and they remain for all time perpetually under this Department. 903. Deputy Haslett.—Are you now speaking for the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests—are all the charities under them?—Yes, they are all registered with the Charitable Commissioners. We have absolute control in the matter. 904. Deputy Crowley.—In what manner do you disburse the funds?—The funds are disbursed at the period when the interest becomes due. We pay to the people named after having received the interest on the charity. For instance, at the next meeting of the Board on the 15th June, we will probably disburse £100,000 in interest. 905. Chairman.—So these Trust Funds that you have are absolutely in your own discretion?—Oh, no, we pay them to the parties entitled to receive the interest. 906. What I mean is that you have not got to go to the court to get confirmation of anything you do?—Oh, no; we are quite independent. There was one case, for instance, the Doctor Durgan charity. He left a large sum to pay an annuity to the Rector of Ferns and the balance is distributed in the purchase of Bibles. The funds accumulated and the total sum now amount to slightly over £20,000. We have all these stocks in our name and when the interest accrues we write a paying order to the Trustees for the amount and they distribute a proportion to the Rector of Ferns, the balance goes to the purchase of Bibles, and at the end of the year they send an account to the Trustees of the sums distributed. We have a very rigid system. 907. Deputy Goulding.—You say that the capital sum has increased and is increasing?—Oh no, not in this case. The script is in our name. The script amounts to £20,000. We distribute the interest. We do not charge anything for the work done. 908. Deputy Smith.—Suppose the interest was more than adequate to provide what was needed, what would happen in that case?—It never does happen, but if it did, we would have to get a cy pres order for the application of the surplus, but it does not happen. 909. Deputy Haslett.—The Trustees act under your direction?—Yes. 910. Deputy Goulding.—Let us take it that the interest on the capital sum was reduced in one year as a result of the reduction of the rate of interest on the investment—what would you do then?— We would pay the interest. That recently happened. There was a reduction from the 5 per cent. consols to 3½ per cent and we paid what accrued at the lesser dividend. VOTE 6—OFFICE OF THE REVENUE COMMISSIONERS.Mr. W. D. Carey called and examined.Mr. Carey.—I am acting for Mr. O’Brien, the Chairman. Mr. O’Brien went away some days before we received your notification and he is not back yet, so I am acting in his place 911. Chairman.—In page iv, there is a note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General; paragraph 4 reads:— “A test examination of the Revenue Account has been carried out with satisfactory results.” Paragraph 5 reads:— “I have been furnished with a schedule of the several cases involving a loss of £50 and upwards, in which claims for duty or interest receivable under the Revenue Acts were remitted during the year ended 31st March, 1936, without statutory authority, from motives of compassion or equity arising out of particular circumstances in individual cases. The reasons given for remission appear to be satisfactory. The total amount shown as remitted during the year is £9,587 8s. 0d. as compared with £12,340 5s. 7d. in the preceding year. Of the total, £8,002 17s. 5d. has been remitted in respect of income-tax. £56 12s. 10d. related to a case in which the assessed party died insolvent and recovery was impossible; £50 related to a case in which a company went into liquidation and there were no assets to meet the claim; £7,896 4s. 7d. related to nine cases in which assessments were raised, but subsequent evidence revealed no net liability to tax. The remissions also include interest on Estate and succession duties amounting to £676 3s. 11d., Customs duties £700, and stamp duties £208 6s. 8d.” 912. Chairman.—The Comptroller and Auditor-General tells me they have no statutory power to remit, but if they make an assessment on a person who is either dead or insolvent, naturally they cannot get the money and they have to remit it. Does that satisfy you? 913. Deputy O Briain.—What do you call the duty in cases of probate?—Estate duty. 914. Where a long period elapses— where, for instance, there is a period of 20 years from the death of the person concerned—is there interest charged over all the period?—Normally. 915. You never remit interest of that kind?—Occasionally. You have got some remissions here which include interest on estate and succession duties amounting to £676 3s. 11d. 916. Deputy Smith.—There is a remission of £700 in respect of Customs duties?—Yes. That related to a particular consignment of a preparation described as rice-bran, a cattle food. It was described originally as consisting entirely or being made entirely of rice husk, and a section was passed in the Finance Act of 1935 with this particular consignment expressly in view, with the intention of exempting it. When a sample was tested by the State chemist he found it did not consist entirely of rice husks, so the section did not cover it. As the section had been passed with this cargo in view, it was considered that it would be stupid to collect the duty and, with the consent of the Department, it was not collected. 917. Chairman.—It would be difficult to get the husks without some particles of the kernel; it would be difficult to get the net husks exclusively without getting portions of the inside?—Quite. 918. Deputy Smith.—This looks quite all right, but at the same time, very often in a Finance Act provision is made to do a certain thing and when the particular section comes to be operated it really does more and, perhaps, inflicts a type of hardship on some individual that was never contemplated. In a case such as that it would be hard to get the Commissioners to take the view they have taken with regard to those husks. 919. Chairman.—I think it is the right view, because it would be impossible to get the net Lusk of any cereal; you are bound to get chips of the kernel and, quite strictly, they would not be husks. With regard to the note on sub-head P-Appropriations-in-Aid, there is reference there to law costs recovered. Do you, as a matter of fact, get any costs out of these prosecutions?—In some cases. 920. The sum under that particular sub-head does not seem very big for the amount of work done?—We sometimes recover costs. We frequently get a verdict which awards us costs. As a matter of fact, you will find the law costs recovered amongst the Appropriations-in-Aid. 921. Deputy Smith.—There is a reference here to proceeds of Customs sales, seizues, etc., and the amount estimated is £800. That looks very small?—I have no doubt it is the correct figure. 922. Chairman.—These articles are sold by auction for whatever they will bring. People are not going to break their necks bidding. Mr. Carey.—The duty has to be satisfied first, and this figure does not include the duty. The duty appears under the ordinary heading as duty. 923. Chairman.—You deduct the duty payable on each of these articles?—Yes, and this represents the balance. 924. Deputy Haslett. — Is that the simple duty or the penalty duty?—We credit the ordinary duty in the case of Customs. VOTE 7.—OLD AGE PENSIONS.Mr. W. D. Carey further examined.925. Deputy O Briain.—With reference to the clerks of Old Age Pensions Committees, is there a fixed fee for remuneration or what is the position?—The remuneration is now fixed. 926. Is it an annual sum?—Yes. 927. There is no such thing as any honorarium to the clerks from old age pensioners who succeed in securing pensions? —Oh, no; of course not. Deputy Smith.—That would be a private understanding. VOTE 72.—COMPENSATION BOUNTIES.Mr. W. D. Carey called.No questions. The witness withdrew. VOTE 51.—NATIONAL GALLERY.Dr. G. J. Furlong called and examined.928. Chairman. — Are the public patronising your gallery any more than they did?—We have no means of measuring that this year, because we never kept an account of the number that came in until last year. We have only one year completed, so we cannot make comparisons. We cover an average of 102 a day. 929. That is not so bad?—That does not mean 102 every day; it means that perhaps on Sundays we would get a little more, sometimes up to 600. The average for the whole year was 102 a day, but whether that is an increase or decrease I cannot tell, because we have no account of the other years. 930. Do you buy many pictures?—For the year we are discussing now, they bought pictures only to the value of £664 because there was no Director for the first half of that year. I only came in October. 931. The Government gave you £1,000? Last year they did, but this year they are giving us more. 932. Have you any other moneys?— Yes, we have the income from the Lane Fund, which used to be about £1,600 or £1,700, but which is now only £1,000. 933. That is due to the conversions of the different stocks?—Yes, to the different conversions. 934. Are you able to get as much money as you reasonably require?—Yes, this current year they have made a number of changes which will be reflected in next year. They have made increases under various headings and we are quite satisfied at the moment. 935. Deputy Goulding.—Are you permitted to give pictures on loan to other cities, like Cork and Waterford?—Yes. There is such a scheme if a proper building is available. If we are assured that proper care will be taken of them, they can borrow pictures, but the building would have to be a sort of fully recognised gallery. I should think that a municipal gallery would come under that heading. Chairman.—Is there a gallery in Waterford? Deputy Goulding.—I do not think there is. Dr. Furlong.—There is a scheme to build one in Limerick. 936. Deputy Goulding.— Could these pictures not be exhibited in large town halls under proper care and supervision? —No, because we should have to be quite sure that there was no danger of fire. 937. Chairman.—And, of course, absolute provision with regard to protection. Dr. Furlong.—There is a widespread belief that there are hundreds of master-pieces not on show in the National Gallery. That is not so. There is nothing of first-rate importance at all that is not on show. There are a certain number of Miltown pictures, but none of them is very important. The Committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m. until Wednesday, 9th June. |
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