Committee Reports > List of Committees > Dáil > 1935 > Select Committee on Mining Rights > Interim and Final Report - Demise of Certain Mining Rights

MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA

(Minutes of Evidence)

Dé Máirt, 8adh Deire Fómhair, 1935.

Tuesday, 8th October, 1935.

The Committee sat at 3 p.m.

MR. W. NORTON in the chair.

4787. Chairman.—There is some correspondence which I think it might be well to read before we proceed to examination of the witness. The first is a letter from the Secretary to the Department of Industry and Commerce dated 7th October, which reads:—

“I send you herewith 11 copies of Departmental minutes and certain other documents which may be regarded as relevant to the subject-matter of the enquiry referred to your Committee. These documents fall within the category referred to in paragraph 2 of my minute of the 10th July and are sent to you subject to the reservation already made in respect of documents in that category.

I also send you herewith 20 copies of other documents which are not subject to the reservation referred to above, and seven further sets of copies of the documents referred to in the second paragraph of my minute of 2nd October.”

The Committee, I think have been supplied with copies of both sets of documents, one set to be treated confidentially and the other for general use. There is a letter here from the firm of M. J. O’Connor & Co., Solicitors, Ferrybank, Arklow, dated 4th October, 1935, and addressed to the Committee. It is as follows:-

“Dear Sir,

We are in receipt of your letter of the 2nd inst.

As Mr. Norman has consented to our so doing, and in immediate compliance with the request of the Select Committee on the Demise of Certain State Mining Rights, we send you the following, which are the only documents handed to us by Mr. Norman in connection with the matters mentioned in your letter, namely:—

1. Copy letter dated 16th May, 1933, apparently written by the Department of Industry and Commerce to Mr. Briscoe, T.D., and bearing the endorsement ‘Original with Mr. Briscoe.’

2. Draft terms of memorandum headed ‘Draft Terms of Agreement; townlands Ballintemple, Coolgarrow, and Clonwilliam. Comyn, Briscoe and Norman, partners in equal shares.’ This document bears no date.

3. Letter from Mr. Briscoe to Mr. Norman dated 25th January, 1934.

4. Letter from Mr. Briscoe to Mr. Norman dated 26th January, 1934.

As we have already stated, these are the only documents which Mr. Norman handed to us when he instructed us in connection with the matter on the 12th April, 1934. If he be correctly reported in the issue of the Irish Independent of the 3rd inst. he, in the course of his evidence before the Select Committee on the 2nd inst. stated that he had also handed us a letter which ‘ Mr. Briscoe wrote to him saying that he was letting the thing drop and asking what nominal sum witness would accept. No such letter was handed to us by anyone at any time. Further we would draw the attention of the Select Committee to the following statement made by Mr. Norman in his evidence as reported in the same newspaper, namely: ‘His former partners got not only the assignment but all the documents that he had handed to his solicitor, Mr. M. J. O’Connor, Arklow.’ We at once take exception to any such statement by Mr. Norman of by any other person because, being untrue it casts a reflection on us in our professional capacity. There is absolutely no truth in such a statement, and it was made by Mr. Norman without having taken any steps to satisfy himself that there was the slightest foundation for saying, and therefore it was made recklessly, and not caring whether it was true or false.

It must be obvious to any person that to accuse a solicitor of handing over documents belonging to a client to a third person without such client’s consent, is a very disparaging and serious accusation when it is not founded on fact. We would not for a moment entertain the idea of doing any such thing in this or any other matter.

In this particular instance we were never even asked by Mr. Briscoe or Senator Comyn or by any person on behalf of them or either of them to hand over to them or either of them any documents which had been handed to us by Mr. Norman.

A letter which we wrote to Mr. Norman on 16th July last was also referred to by Mr. Norman in his evidence. This letter came to us during the holiday season and while our Assistant who had charge of the matter was absent on vacation. As stated in our letter, the papers had been put away as the matter had been completed. If Mr. Norman wanted his papers urgently it is unfortunate that he did not remind us of the matter either by writing us or by making a call to our weekly office in Rathdrum, near where he then lived. From the 15th July last, when he wrote to us, Mr. Norman never wrote or reminded us that he was still awaiting the documents.

Our only connection with the matter is that Mr. Norman called to our Rathdrum office in April, 1934, and, having informed us that Messrs. Comyn and Briscoe had in January previously agreed to pay him £25 for his interest in an application for a mining lease, that this sum had not been paid to him and he asked us to collect it for him. We never saw nor heard of Mr. Norman before April, 1934, and we were not asked to advise, but merely to collect this debt, which we did.

We think it only fair to ourselves to quote for the information of the Select Committee an undated letter written to us by Mr. Norman in reply to a letter of ours of the 14th May, 1934, when the matter was completed so far as we were concerned. The letter is as follows, and we attach the original for your inspection:—

Cullentra House, Rathdrum,

County Wicklow.

J. M. O’Connor & Co.,

Arklow.

Dear Sirs,

I thank you for your letter; also enclosed cheque, for £23 15s. 0d. I would point out that I am very pleased by the way you have handled this matter.

Thanking you for your attention.

I remain, yours faithfully,

G. Norman.

In justice to us, we hope the foregoing will be published in full.

Yours truly,

M. J. O’Connor & Co.”

The letters which were enclosed are identified by the four numerical quotations in the body of the letter. If any member of the Committee is interested he is at liberty to inspect the documents. Copies can be made afterwards if it is the desire of the Committee that they should be copied. I have a letter here from Messrs. Arram, Fairfield & Co., Solicitors, 40-42 Cannon Street, Bank, London, E.C.4, dated 2nd October, and addressed to the Secretary of the Committee. It reads as follows:—

“Dear Sir,

Re Wicklow Gold Inquiry.

We understand from Messrs. McGrath, Solicitors, of Dublin, that you have made personal request to them for our client, Mr. Maurice Heiser, to attend and give evidence at the Select Committee Inquiry now being held in relation to the above matter.

We are instructed to say that our client Mr. Maurice Heiser is ready and willing to attend the sittings of the Commission of Inquiry at all reasonable times, providing of course that he will be accorded personal protection and that, of course, his reasonable travelling and hotel expenses will be met.

Mr. Heiser is prepared to give to the Inquiry all assistance that can be reasonably expected of him, as he wishes to help its members to obtain a true and just report of the matters in question.

We shall be glad to hear from you at your early convenience in reply.”

That letter was apparently written as a result of inquiries made by the Secretary of the Committee as to the whereabouts of Mr. Heiser. His inquiries were directed to the firm of solicitors in Dublin. In reply the Clerk to the Committee sent to this firm of solicitors a copy of a letter which had been despatched direct to Mr. Heiser on the 2nd inst., informing him of course that to-morrow had been fixed as the date of his attendance before the Committee. There is a letter from Deputy Briscoe dated 8th October, 1935. addressed to the Secretary of the Committee, which reads:—

“Dear Sir,

Upon making further search in recent correspondence I found the enclosed letter, to which I have made no reply.”

Enclosed is an original letter from Messrs. Arram, Fairfield & Co., Solicitors, dated 23rd September, 1935, which is part of the discovery of documents made on the last day. There is a further letter from Mr. Briscoe also dated 8th October, 1935, addressed to the Committee, in which he says:-

“Dear Sir,

With reference to the query by Deputy Costello in connection with certain correspondence between Messrs. McGrath, Solicitors, to Messrs. Risberget and myself, I wish to state that no such letter, as referred to by Deputy Costello, was amongst my papers.

I have since discovered that the letter I presumed to be in question—copy of which is enclosed—was actually in the possession of our Solicitor, Mr. Cox, and is on his file and was answered by Mr. Cox on 16th July. All subsequent correspondence between Messrs. MacGrath was addressed to Mr. Cox.

Very truly yours,

R. Briscoe.

P.S.—I have no trace of ever having received a copy of a letter addressed to Mr. Heiser by Messrs. Harrison, Sudden and Company; neither have I recollection of the contents; it is, however, quite possible that such a letter was sent. I cannot, however, trace it or recollect it.”

Mr. Grattan H. C. Norman further examined.

4788. Deputy Moore.—In your evidence here last week I think you claimed that you directed Messrs. Comyn and Briscoe to the particular place where the prospecting had taken place?—I did not direct them to the place. It is a quite simple matter for any one who read the old records; they would find there records given as to the finding of gold in any area within ten or fifteen miles in that district in Wicklow. I said I selected nine townlands applied for.

4789. That it was on your initiative, without any help from them?—I will say it was entirely on my initiative in certain respects. There were places where it was a known fact that gold was found by local people. I think these places were known. But apart from that it was entirely upon my own initiative.

4790. They were known to Messrs. Comyn and Briscoe?—Probably.

4791. You emphasised in your evidence last week that you were responsible for selecting the nine townlands?—Yes.

4792. You stated that Mr. Briscoe in his evidence seemed to make it clear that he knew where the area was?—Yes.

4793. But that Senator Comyn could not find that place?—Yes, on the map.

4794. What do you mean: That they had no particular interest in this place at all?—I do not know what interest they had previous to my being associated with it, but I selected the ground of the nine townlands, and the three townlands afterwards.

4795. What is the claim made by you in answer to question 4756, second column. You say: “I should like to draw attention to the fact that the nine townlands were selected by me and no other.” What is your claim? Is it that you were responsible for bringing them to the best place?—Yes. That is definite.

4796. That they had no knowledge of any particular district there?—I do not know. I only know, from my personal point of view that I selected the best places.

4797. You were making a special claim with regard to the selection of that particular area? I want to know what is your claim based on?—My claim is based on this: I started off, originally, entirely upon my own. Mr. Briscoe and Senator Comyn were in town. I found from the state of the ground that the place I selected was the best. Then when Mr. Briscoe and Senator Comyn came down they agreed with my opinions.

4798. But they already directed you to Woodenbridge?—That was the nearest hotel.

4799. But they directed you to that district in particular?—No. They asked me originally in Leinster House where was the nearest village to the place. We decided that Woodenbridge was the best centre.

4800. The nearest village or place to what?—To the area.

4801. To the mine?—To the area. There was no definite mine.

4802. They already had the area in mind?—No. We suggested it between the three of us. I looked up the mapand I saw on the ordnance sheet that Woodenbridge was the nearest.

4803. The nearest to what?—To the centre.

4804. Was the area already agreed?—I had already the area in mind.

4805. They had not?—I cannot say that. They knew roughly that in the County Wicklow gold was found.

4806. All the County Wicklow was the same to them?—Yes.

4807. Had they ever done prospecting there already?—To my knowledge, no.

4808. In Woodenbridge area?—In Woodenbridge area they had not done any prospecting at all; that is prospecting, that would carry weight with anyone who knew of their prospecting there.

4809. Had they surveyed the place or made any enquiry?—They were making enquiries the week previous.

4810. They must have some interest in the place if they made inquiries?—They knew that in olden times that was where the gold was found.

4811. I do not know what your claim is. How is it that you claim that you selected the place?—I tied them down to nine townlands and later to three townlands.

4811a. They already knew these three townlands?—No. They knew the gold was somewhere in Wicklow. They went round to the cottages and asked questions; they knew it was somewhere in that area—all round Woodenbridge and round there. They went to various cottages and made a few inquiries. That is the only thing I know they did in the matter before I came on the scene.

4812. You know they were specially interested in Ballintemple?—I do not believe they even knew that was the name of the townland.

4813. You knew they were interested?— They made several inquiries in cottages.

4814. And that they were told there was gold there?— Yes, they were told there was gold there.

4815. They would be specially interested in that district as well as others?—Yes, in that district.

4816. I do not understand what your claim is?—That it was I that directed the prospecting.

4817. You said, in your answer to which I called attention already, “I would like to draw attention now to the fact that the nine townlands were selected by me and no other?”—So they were.

4818. But they had the nine townlands in mind?—They had no definite concise area in mind. They could have applied the lease to the whole mineral rights of the South East County Wicklow.

4819. They were told by people that there was gold in that particular area? —Yes.

4820. They were so told?—Yes.

4821. Well, then, they were specially interested in that area?—They were.

4822. So that I think your claim cannot be supported?—Why? If you get an ordnance map and marked off an area when you go for your lease, you would not be able properly to follow the contortions of the different townlands and say definitely what area you want.

4823. A while ago you said it was more or less the County Wicklow. Now you admit they had reason to be interested particularly in these three or nine town-lands?—I will not say that they were particularly interested in the area that I first said would be the best place. In fact, generally speaking, their opinion gained from the locals, was that the higher up portions of the valley were the richest, and I think it was there they were interested before they met me. As a matter of fact you will find that the three townlands do not cover the area of the upper portion of the valley.

4824. It is the case, though, that they were not merely interested in the minerals of Wicklow but in the minerals of a particular area, because they had heard locally that gold was to be found?—Yes, I agree with you.

4825. To that extent they assisted you in choosing the townlands?—Not necessarily. Before I met Mr. Comyn or Mr. Briscoe, or before they were down there I knew which was the best place from just casually investigating purely in my own interest, for my own satisfaction, my own personal curiosity. I should go straight to the place without any leader or instructions from either Mr. Comyn or Mr. Briscoe.

4826. They had been already there themselves?—I believe so. They did not tell me that.

4827. We are at a standstill with regard to your evidence. I do not know what your claim is there at all, if they were already there and they heard locally that gold was to be found in a particular place?—That particular place was the higher reaches of the valley, and in the three townlands I was finally asked to number out of the nine as the best place. They did not even cover the upper portions of the valley.

4828. What of the portion they had heard about?—That portion would be rather a large portion; it would be up to 20 or 30 square miles.

4829. If I told you I saw them prospecting in that district myself before they met you, would that change your opinion with regard to this?—Prospecting in what way?

4830. Doing initial prospecting?—I do not think it would change the thing at all.

4831. You say here “More often, Mr. Briscoe made use of me in other ways. For instance, on Sunday evenings, when I would be doing nothing, Mr. Briscoe might have a political meeting somewhere and would ask me to drive a car for him and act more or less as chauffeur.” What meetings were you at with Mr. Briscoe? —That is rather a tall order. I have not got such a good memory as all that. But I remember on one Sunday going to Drogheda, I think it was. There were other places but these are the only ones I remember. I was around the city before the last general election at a couple of meetings somewhere about York Street and several other places. It is very difficult to remember.

4832. Are you sure there was a general election since the time you linked up with Mr. Briscoe?—I think so, if you will look up the dates.

4833. The last general election was about February, 1933. Were you in touch with Mr. Briscoe about that time? —March 20th, 1933, was about the time we started the three-way partnership. Are you sure it was not after February— the general election? I know there was some seat vacant in the Dáil and it might have been a by-election.

4834. Deputy Coburn.—You did not use the words “general election”. You said “political meetings”?—Political meetings I said. There was an election of some description.

4835. Deputy Moore.—You do not know where?—In Dublin.

4836. It was in Dublin you used to go to the political meetings?—One political meeting was, I think, in Drogheda and another in Dublin. There were several in different streets and we were going from one street to the other.

4837. On Sunday evenings?—I forget now, but it was probably Sunday evenings.

4838. But it is not usual to have political meetings in Dublin on a Sunday evening?—Well, I do not know. I was only speaking from memory. I have gone through a lot since and I have been very busy and it is difficult to remember.

4839. But it was of your own volition you made that statement?—Yes, and it is quite correct.

4840. You should be able to support it when you thought it worth while mentioning?—There was one meeting, I think it was in Grantham Street, and another in a place off Mount Street, in Power’s Court. I know Mr. Briscoe passed the remark when we went in: “We will be lucky if we do not get hit with a bottle here.”

4841. Mr. Briscoe asked you to drive him there?—He did not definitely ask me, but he rather seemed to like me to drive the car for him while he could prepare his notes, or something like that.

4842. You do not attach importance to that statement?—No; it is only that I spent time. The only importance I attach to it is that I spent time when I could be otherwise engaged.

4843. If he only put it to you that he would like you to go—there was no compulsion on you?—There was definitely no compulsion.

4844. As a matter of fact, you thought it good enjoyment yourself?—I did not think it good enjoyment, but I did not mind. I am that sort of person, if I am with a man and he would like a thing done I would do it. I would do anything in my power to please a friend, but I do not like being made use of.

4845. Again I would remind you that it was your own voluntary statement?— Yes.

4846. You do not like being made use of by another man?— I do not mind helping or trying to please a friend, yet I do not like being made use of.

Deputy Coburn.—Or getting a blow of a bottle?

4847. Deputy Moore.— I imagine there was not much making use of you if he said “I am going to a meeting”?—If Deputy Briscoe wanted the car driven and if I was not available and he wanted someone to drive it he would have to engage someone.

4848. But Mr. Briscoe drives a car himself?—Yes.

4849. And it is his own car you were driving?—It was belonging to the Fianna Fáil Committee or some such body.

4850. Are you sure of that?—Mr. Briscoe told me that.

4851. That he was using a Fianna Fáil car for personal purposes?—I do not think it was personal purposes going to a political meeting and representing Fianna Fáil.

4852. But was it not in Woodenbridge that he made this proposal?—It was when I was in town. I did not spend my week-ends in Woodenbridge.

4853. He was going a mile or two through town?—Ballybrack is not a mile or two from town. I was living in Dalkey, and that is only a mile or two from Mr. Briscoe’s house in Ballybrack.

4854. Would he send for you on a Sunday?—No. We would probably be together on Saturday talking about the gold in Wicklow, and he would probably bring up the matter, and perhaps he would let me take the car home and drive it rather than walk the couple of miles, and I would bring it around in the morning, and perhaps he would be going to a meeting and he would ask me “Are you going with me and drive the car,” friendly like, and I would say “All right.” I do not attach any importance to the statement. It is only that I did it and perhaps I might have been otherwise engaged.

4855. That statement, “More often, Mr. Briscoe made use of me in other ways”—would you like to withdraw that?—I will not withdraw any little bit of my evidence. You can take it for what it is worth.

4856. Your explanation of it is that you do not attach much importance to it?—I do not see how it is of much importance to the findings of this Committee, apart from the fact that I was with Mr. Briscoe doing work that was practically of no use to me while I could have been engaged otherwise.

4857. You stated a while ago that you did not want any importance attached to it?—No Importance beyond that attached to it.

4858. Beyond what? If it was the informal thing you say it was, and it was on a Sunday evening, what importance do you attach to it?—I will not definitely say it was on a Sunday evening. It was the time when I was not in Woodenbridge prospecting.

4859. Were you on very intimate terms with Mr. Briscoe that time?—Quite.

4860. Was it in confidence that Mr. Briscoe told you about this arrangement with his French friends?—No, it was not in confidence. It was quite general property between Messrs. Briscoe, Comyn and me. Monsieur Feugerol came to Woodenbridge. He came personally once in connection with the gold. He had been down as a friend of Mr. Briscoe’s several times before.

4861. Was it Mr. Briscoe told you about this arrangement by which they advanced money to him?—He did not tell me personally, but I heard a remark between Mr. Comyn and Mr. Briscoe where Mr. Comyn said: “Give the French people back their money and tell them to go to hell.”

4862. You merely overheard that?— Yes.

4863. You had not been aware previously that there was French money involved?—I had not been aware that there was already French money, but I knew from the proposals made as to the selling of one-third or one-fourth part of our shares that they were to provide £300 to keep the thing going, to keep me going in Woodenbridge until such time as they sent for their own people and got things going on their account.

4864. Was it Mr. Briscoe told you that?—Mr. Briscoe told me that.

4865. Did he say that the continuance of the work depended on French support? —Yes, on the French people going ahead and doing what they were going to do. There were several holds-up on the job. They were to send for some of their own experts, which they did, and I know the ultimate thing was a conversation I heard between Mr. Comyn and Mr. Briscoe. It was not private, everything was passed in front of me. I did not want to make any inquiries. It had nothing to do with me.

4866. But still you think it important enough to weigh with the Committee— what you heard on hearsay?—I did not merely hear it on hearsay. I was in Woodenbridge more or less pending what the French people were going to do. It was general information between the three parties concerned.

4867. You just overheard them?—I have no documents to prove about the French people, but the French people, if they could be got hold of, can corroborate everything I say.

4868. Your impressions were formed from overhearing conversation?—No, from conversations passed in my presence. I have no habit of overhearing people.

4869. I thought you made that remark yourself a while ago?—If there are three people in a room talking, one person can talk to another person without necessarily talking to the third, and still the third has a knowledge of everything that passes.

4870. Were the exact relations with these French people explained to you by Deputy Briscoe?—Yes.

4871. And it was intended that you would hear this conversation between Deputy Briscoe and Senator Comyn with regard to what was happening with the French?—Yes, I take it so; it was a casual thing; there was nothing to hide in it. Senator Comyn said: “Those people are trying to raise money on the strength of my name in France; they are doing nothing and they are holding us up.”

4872. I believe they advanced 2,000 francs to Deputy Briscoe—did Deputy Briscoe tell you that?—No, he did not tell me that, but I believe he told me when the original arrangements were made that they were to provide 2,000 francs to carry on my work until such time as they came over. When Senator Comyn told Deputy Briscoe to give the French back their money, it is natural that I should assume they got that money.

4873. You assumed it?—It is a quite natural thing to assume.

4874. At any rate it is an assumption? —Yes.

4875. You have no evidence other than that?—I have no evidence other than Senator Comyn telling Deputy Briscoe to give the money back, and if my memory is correct I believe that Mr. Briscoe told me himself that he did give back the money. I believe he did so in talking to me afterwards, when we were by ourselves.

4876. You believe that—are you confident of it?—I am practically confident of it.

4877. You would not swear to it?—I would swear to it that Deputy Briscoe told me he had given back this money.

4878. Chairman.—Just a few questions I want to put to you—have you any engineering qualifications?—I have no engineering qualifications, but if you like to get any expert to question me, I will be glad if you do so.

4879. I am not suggesting putting any test to you?—All you have got to do is to ask Mr. Lyburn any question about me, and I am sure——

4880. I am not concerned with being referred to anybody else, but have you any engineering qualifications recognised by any institution?—No, but I have practical experience, and I can testify to that.

4881. What experience have you of mining generally, and for what period?— I think my evidence the other day explains all that. I think I will just read it for you? “I call myself a person who has had practical experience both in the manufacture of machinery for ore dressing and in the operation of that in the field, discovering and extracting the metals from the various ores.”

4882. Where was that activity carried on?—In Glendalough, and as well as that I had practically made a hobby of minerology in its various aspects.

4883. What precise complaint have you if you have any against Deputy Briscoe and Senator Comyn?—What precise complaint?

4884. Yes?—Well now first of all they referred to me as being nothing but a vocabulary; I would like to know where Deputy Briscoe got his vocabulary——

Deputy Geoghegan.—Surely we are not enquiring into complaints arising out of evidence given by Deputy Briscoe here— we are not enquiring into such things as defamation which is complained of now. I think, Sir, your question to the witness was as to what complaint he had against Senator Comyn and Deputy Briscoe.

4885. Chairman.—I was just waiting to give the witness an opportunity of developing his point. I want to ascertain from him what grievance he has against Senator Comyn and Deputy Briscoe in connection with this lease?— I take it definitely that that question was put in relation to the other matter. I would like to know where Deputy Briscoe got his vocabulary concerning mining; he said I had nothing but a vocabulary.

4886. You seem to be replying now to Deputy Briscoe but my question is as to what complaint you have against Senator Comyn and Deputy Briscoe in connection with the grant of this lease to them?—I have absolutely no complaint. I take it I was summoned by this Committee to give evidence and I came to put the facts before the Committee. After giving my evidence I am personally finished with the thing. I do not look back upon anything with regret. I take things as they come and if things are going on they are all right. I wish you to understand that I am giving my evidence unbiassed for either side.

4887. I think you mentioned on the last occasion that you were prospecting for gold around 1933?—Yes, that is true.

4888. In whose employment were you at that period?—In whose employment was I—and from what period—the period when the three-way partnership was arranged with Senator Comyn and Deputy Briscoe; that was, I think, in March, 1933. I would not consider myself in anybody’s employment from that period onwards. The three of us were equal partners.

4889. Were any wages paid to you during that period?—My hotel expenses were to be paid and I was to get 15/- besides for other sundries that came in.

4890. For portion of that period you were getting £2 5s. 0d. a week?—Yes.

4891. What was that for?—For the hotel and if you subtract £1 10s. 0d. for the hotel from £2 5s. 0d. you would get a remainder of 15/-.

4892. So that you were receiving the same payment for your services in that particular area from somebody other than yourself. All I want to ascertain is that you were in fact receiving money?— Yes I was receiving money as my expenses not receiving it for work done.

4893. It may have been inadequate remuneration for the work done, but at all events you were receiving the money on behalf of Senator Comyn and Mr. Briscoe?—No, not necessarily—the three of us were equal partners. The arrangements were my expenses were to be paid. They did me no good, they were only expenses.

4894. Paid by whom?—By Senator Comyn and by Deputy Briscoe.

4895. So that in addition to assisting yourself as a partner in this lease arrangement you were also in the employment of Deputy Briscoe and Senator Comyn?—I was not in their employment.

4896. They were paying you something?—They were paying my expenses. If you call Mr. Heiser to give evidence at this Committee you are paying his expenses, but Mr. Heiser is not an employee of this Committee.

4897. Do not mind that now. What was your authority to prospect for gold in 1933?—My authority was based on the goodwill of Senator Comyn and Deputy Briscoe.

4898. Did you know whether they had any lease?—I know they had not any lease.

4899. Listen to the question I am putting-did you know whether they had any lease which entitled them that year to prospect in that area for gold?—I knew they had no lease.

4900. So that minerals were being prospected for without any lease?—Yes, surface prospecting.

4901. Was any gold obtained during that period?—Yes, infinitely tiny small pieces—what would be good enough for the microscope simply.

4902. From your knowledge of mining, do you think it rather unusual that you were prospecting for gold in an area in which you were not entitled to prospect? —We applied for a lease and I know that Deputy Briscoe was with me in the Department of Industry and Commerce and we asked them to put the lease through in a hurry and they said that they could not, that it would be a long time, and Deputy Briscoe told the official of the Department that we had started prospecting and he asked if I started prospecting in good faith what was going to be done about it. I forget what the reply was, but I know that Deputy Briscoe told the official that I was going to prospect there in good faith that the lease would be granted to us.

4903. You were present when he made that statement to the officials?—Yes.

4904. Can you recollect the name of the official?—It was in Mr. Maguire’s office, and I think Mr. Maguire was present.

4905. Did any official in the Department accept the position that you could prospect for gold without a lease?—The answer, I think, was vague; there was no encouragement or discouragement.

4906. There was no dissent expressed by the Department to Deputy Briscoe’s suggestion that you were to prospect in good faith?—I want to say, and I will say, that they told Deputy Briscoe that if he did it he would be doing it at his own risk, or something like that. I do not remember the exact details of the conversation that passed.

4907. You know that the Mines and Minerals Act does not allow persons to prospect for gold in good faith until they get a lease?—I am aware of that.

4908. At all events, prospecting was carried out in this area without any lease from the State Department concerned?— Yes.

4909. Have you any idea of the value of the gold GOT by you in that area?— Well, I suppose 1/- would cover the whole thing.

4910. You say that 1/- would cover the amount discovered while you were engaged in that activity?—Not in the whole activity but up to the time we heard further from the Department of Industry and Commerce when they stated that they would be prepared to grant a lease for three townlands. They were to enumerate three townlands and get the thing through in a hurry. Afterwards we got more gold which I suppose would be worth more than 1/-.

4911. The lease was not granted until November, 1934?—Yes. Mr. Briscoe got a letter from the Department of Industry and Commerce saying that the lease would definitely be granted to us for three townlands if we told them what three townlands we wanted. I could not tell you the date of that letter but I think Mr. Briscoe or Senator Comyn should have it.

4912. During the period, let us say, from April, 1933, to the end of June of the same year, had you any approximate idea of what gold was mined?— There was no gold mined.

4913. Or any gold obtained?—There might have been gold obtained in prospecting samples. I suppose there would not be more than a dwt. of gold in that period. That would be 7/- or 7/2 worth.

4914. Was that because it was difficult to obtain or because you were not seriously prospecting for it?—We were not prospecting to win gold, but to find where the gold was. No prospector goes out on his own to try to get all the gold by himself. He cannot do that. He goes out to find where the gold is and what quantity there is of it and to report to whomever he is prospecting for on his findings.

4915. What did you think of your activities in that respect? Were you satisfied with what you found?—I was satisfied, yes. It gave me a definite basis to work upon and to form a report. Before I sold my interest over to Senator Comyn and Mr. Briscoe, I asked Mr. Briscoe if he thought it would be advisable for me to write my prospector’s report on the thing, and to publish it, but they seemed to think not—that it was not necessary.

4916. Did they share your satisfaction with what you discovered in the area?— Up to what period.

4917. In the year 1933 generally?—No; “in the year 1933 generally” would not do. In the period from March to June, I would say they were satisfied, or rather, they showed their satisfaction to me, and from the period from November, 1933 up to about April, 1934, they said they were rather dissatisfied and did not think there was any gold there worth while bothering about. Frankly, my impression was that Senator Comyn and Mr. Briscoe thought that when I would go down to Woodenbridge and spend a few months down there, I would come back with hunks of the gold, that I would have found quite large lumps, and they were rather displeased when they were only little small specks, but in the richest gold mine in the world it is only in tiny specks.

4918. It was only their super-optimism that led them to express that view?—I suppose so.

4919. At all events, even in 1934, you were still optimistic as to the gold there? I am still, provided the thing is worked in a proper scientific way.

4920. Deputy Dowdall.—I inferred from your evidence on the last day when you referred to Mr. Heiser and Mr. Dunne that you did not think there was any possibility of the gold being worked on a large scale by a company and with machinery?—No, I did not exactly say that.

4921. You did not say it, but I inferred that that is what you really meant?—I did not exactly mean that. I meant that if the thing was to be worked on a company basis, there should be, first of all, a prospecting company formed, with its object purely to prospect the land, that is, to bore, as I told you last time, at various intervals and to find out how much gold there was there and then go ahead and form a company to exploit that gold.

4922. In one of your remarks towards the conclusion of your statement on the last day, you said that Irish gold is veryfinely disseminated. It is though the soil?—Yes.

4923. And in the gravel?—Yes.

4924. There is really no quantity of gold?—Not in one particular spot. It is not concentrated by nature in any great degree.

4925. In another part of your statement, you said that you and some other man—I suppose Mr. Keogh—wanted to get to work to get a chance of making your wages?—Yes, that was in the later stage when the cradle was made and when the gold we found was to act as expenses as well.

4926. To help you to keep alive during the period?—Yes.

4927. You were not very successful at that?—No.

4928. You did not earn sufficient to keep you going?—I must point out that while working, before Senator Comyn came down, we did get quite nice little nuggets. We were only getting the small hand-washer to work because it needed various setting up operations to find out which was the best angle to work at and at what flow of water it would work best at, and I was quite satisfied with the results. We got several little nuggets about the size of a pea and Senator Comyn took them away with him. He was very enthusiastic about them, but he told us to go to a different location, that we were only wasting our time there——

4929. Thank you, but do not mind that. You say you found several nuggets?— Yes.

4930. Is a nugget pure gold?—No.

4931. Exactly how much gold did you recover during the period you were working in an effort to get your wages or your keep or expenses on your own?—I myself did not weigh the gold because I had no laboratory apparatus with me in Woodenbridge.

4932. Let us have an estimate of what you think the value of it was?—The value or weight?

4933. The value?—I suppose there would not be more than 25/- worth altogether.

4934. During the whole period?—During the latter period—the time of the hand-washing cradle.

4935. Over what period was that?— That was only for a couple of weeks. That amount of gold was got in the first couple of days. You cannot say that that amount of gold took three weeks or six weeks to produce. It was got in the first few days. Senator Comyn told us to go somewhere else where we got no gold. We got little bits some days and other days we got none at all.

4936. After you got the cradle and after you had gone to a certain locality and got some gold, did Senator Comyn tell you to go to some other place?— Yes.

4937. After you got the cradle?—Yes.

4938. Speaking about the cradle, I understood from Mr. Briscoe when he was giving evidence that it was your suggestion to get the cradle?—No; Mr. Briscoe asked me on what method could a person work the thing in a small way, with a couple of men on the surface, and I told him that the only way was to work with a primitive cradle.

4939. Then it was really your suggestion. He asked for the information and you gave him that information?—Yes.

4940. From your evidence it seemed to me that it was his suggestion. You got 25/- worth of gold in the first two or three days, and after that, because Senator Comyn told you you were to go somewhere else, you did not get any more?—We did not get any more worth while talking about.

4941. Twenty-five shillings for two men over a period of three weeks would not indicate that the mine was worth much? —No.

4942. Or at least that the area was not very valuable?—I must go back to my original point. If we had been allowed to carry on in the way we were working for the three weeks, or whatever the period was, it would probably have paid our expenses, but it did not, because we were depending for the money we were getting on Senator Comyn and naturally we had to do what he asked us. Whereever the money was, the control was.

4943. Supposing this company of £80,000 were set up, do you think it could be worked at a profit?—Yes.

4944. It could recover gold and leave a profit after working?—It could be done, but the profit would be a very small border-line matter.

4945. Taking it generally, you do not attach a very great deal of importance as a commercial proposition to gold mining in Wicklow?—No; of the minerals in Wicklow, gold comes about third in importance, that is, commercially.

4946. You speak of quartz. I am not very well up in this. Quartz is portion of the lode; it is a stone?—Not necessarily. It is Si O₃—silicon oxide, and it is an igneous rock that comes up with the granites.

4947. During the course of some replies you made to Deputy Moore, you referred to Mr. Briscoe as a friend?—Yes.

4948. In your evidence last week you said that Mr. Briscoe and your father were friends and that they had known each other for a long time?—That is true.

4949. Before I forget it—and it is merely a casual reference—these 2,000 francs which Mr. Briscoe was supposed to have got would be worth, at the rate of exchange, about £16. That would not be a tremendous investment?—No, it would not. Was it 2,000 or 20,000?

4950. 2,000 is here and 2,000 is what you said?—It was not very much I know. I only knew that money changed hands.

4951. In your evidence on page 371, first column, you say, after mentioning that you returned to your father’s business:

“I want to point out, however, that all along Senator Comyn passed the remark, ‘Remember, even if we do not get enough gold, this is a very valuable lease to have.’ He was very hot on that point, if I may say so.”

That was in 1933?—Yes.

4952. And it was after you left them for the period of three months from March to June?—No, not necessarily.

4953. It says here immediately before that, “And I returned to my father’s business”?—I must point out that Senator Comyn passed that remark on several occasions during the whole of 1933.

4954. In the evidence Deputy McGilligan gave here, he said that the treatment by Messrs. Comyn and Briscoe of you was a shameful and sordid attempt at the exploitation of an Irish national. Would you subscribe to that?—I would in certain respects. Let us say that you get somebody to go and prospect ground for you. Mr. Dunn wanted his thousand pounds——

4955. Never mind Mr. Dunn. Answer the question I asked you?—Apart from Mr. Dunn the costs of the experts that the French people brought over there ran rather high, too, and they were on the job only one day. I spent several months there, from time to time, and I got nothing out of it.

4956. Senator Comyn, Deputy Briscoe and you were equal partners?—Yes.

4957. They only intended to put up £200 to test their prospects in this place—Yes.

4958. What could you expect out of £200, you being one of the partners, without anything being found. On your own admission, the most you found, when working it yourself for a few days, was 25/- worth. How could you expect to get a lot of money out of such an amount as £200?—That is not the point. An expert has acquired his knowledge somehow perhaps by bitter experience, perhaps by going to college—and when he is consulted, he has to be remunerated. If you go to a doctor, he may spend only a few minutes with you but his fees are there.

4959. We shall not go into that. There was £200 to be spent on prospecting and you were one of the prospectors. If anything came out of the project eventually —if £100,000 came out of it—you would be entitled to one-third, but you could not expect much out of such a sum as £200? —I did not expect anything out of that.

4960. There is no use in talking about a fee of £1,000 to Mr. Dunn which is, of course, problematical?—To answer your question fully, I did not expect money out of that, but when Mr. McGilligan said I was not treated in a proper manner, he was referring to the way they got rid of me.

4961. He said you were treated in a shameful and sordid manner?—That was as regards the way they got rid of me.

4962. My questions were directed to inducing you to admit that the property was not of much value?—Commercially, the property is not of excessive value.

4963. According to some of the evidence given, Deputy Briscoe was reluctant to sign the lease. He did not sign it until some time near Christmas instead of November. He had, apparently, not much faith that this was something upon which he could get a very good return even on an outlay of £200. Later on— this year—I believe he handed over half his holding, which was half the value of the interest in the lease, to Mr. Breen, so that evidently at that particular period—this year—he had not any great faith in being able to get much out of it. In view of that and of what your evidence here suggests, that the ore is finely disseminated, it would seem to my mind that the mine was worth very little. When I speak of the mine, I speak of the area covered by the lease. Why, if Deputy Briscoe gave away half his interest and was reluctant to sign the lease, and if you were prepared to drop out when they told you they were going to drop the project—that has not been quite proven up to the present, but let us assume that it has—why do you consider that you were treated in a shameful and sordid manner?—If they were prepared in good faith to drop the thing and leave it at that, then I was treated fairly well. I do not complain. I was not treated altogether badly if that was the case.

4964. Supposing they were prepared to drop it and that Mr. Heiser came along afterwards?—Mr. Heiser was in the background the whole time.

4965. He was not in the background with money the whole time, because it has been proven that Mr. Heiser was unable to get money to finance his own proposition, not to speak of their proposition. Remember, Mr. Heiser came to them direct from America. At least, that is my understanding. He came somewhere about March, 1935, and he proposed an £80,000 company. You went out in April, 1934, and you were promised in January, 1934, that you would get £25. From that period at which you agreed to go out and the period when Mr. Heiser came, 15 months had elapsed?—Yes.

4966. And, during the whole of that period, there was nothing of value coming out of the mine?—There was nothing about it at all.

4967. Therefore, after Mr. Heiser came along, in March, 1935, and proposed an £80,000 company, Messrs. Comyn and Briscoe at the time they dropped you and told you they were going to give up the mine might have been perfectly bona fide. Afterwards, when Mr. Heiser came along with his £80,000 proposition, the thing might appear to have some potential value?—I want to point out that Senator Comyn and Deputy Briscoe knew of Mr. Heiser before I actually started down at prospecting. Senator Comyn had a photograph of Mr. Heiser panning gravel in that district. I am not at all sure that there might not have been communications the whole time from Mr. Heiser.

4968. That is only supposition on your part?—That is all.

4969. I call your attention to a statement in the evidence on page 372. You say, “It seems that, at the time when they wrote that letter to me, they were in some sort of negotiation with these other people.” Is that supposition or do you know of it?—I do not know of it.

4970. Then, I do not think you should have stated it?—As I said before, Senator Comyn knew of Mr. Heiser, and, to all intents and purposes, they kept the whole thing from me. There might have been some arrangements made even at that time. You will admit that there must have been something in my mind regarding that or I would not have said it.

4971. I do not think that there is anything in the evidence given before us or anything in the files, so far as I have been able to read them, that would justify any such assumption. Did you, directly or indirectly, get in touch with anybody about this inquiry before it took place? After the statements by Mr. McGilligan in the Dáil, were you in touch with Mr. McGilligan, directly or indirectly, by letter or otherwise?—Personally, I took no action at all.

4972. Were you in touch with him?— Mr. McGilligan wrote to me. He was in touch with my father, and he wrote to me on one occasion wanting to know if I would be available.

4973. Deputy Good.—When was that? —I may have the letter with me. The date is the 9/7/35.

4974. Deputy Dowdall.—You saw Mr. McGilligan?—I did not see him. He wrote a letter to me after my father had been talking to him.

4975. It was your father gave him information?—Yes.

4976. It seems to me that, in view of the fact that this gold area has been known for hundreds of years and that, according to you, the only man who worked it properly was a Mr. Weaver in 1797, there cannot be a tremendous amount of gold there?—There is not.

4977. In view of that and of what you said a while ago-that if they were going to drop the project you would consider you were paid fairly well by receiving £25—you were not badly treated?—In relationship to that gold area, I was not treated badly in certain respects, but I was on the whole. Concerning the minerals of County Wicklow in general, I was treated badly by Deputy Briscoe. I would not say definitely that I was treated badly if they were going to drop the thing as they said they were. That letter must have gone astray. I must have made some mistake when it did not go to the solicitor, but my father and mother can corroborate that Mr. Briscoe said in his own house to them that they were letting the thing drop. If they were letting the thing drop, I was not too badly treated with regard to the gold, but I was badly treated in this respect—that in 1932, in regard to the lead and zinc, Mr. Briscoe——

4978. That has nothing to do with our position here?—You asked why Mr. McGilligan said I was badly treated. I take it on the whole that I was badly treated, now when it transpires that although they said they were letting the thing drop, who knows but they were probably in touch with Mr. Heiser, because he had been in Ireland. Senator Comyn had photographs of him and there were several other things. It naturally leaves the opening for me to believe that they were in touch.

4979. If no Mr. Heiser came along and suggested that there was an £80,000 company being formed, and that they were to get 12,000 shares in the company, and 6¼per cent. commission on anything found; if no such proposition was put up, would you consider that you were badly treated?—I would, for the simple reason that when I did agree to sell my share for £25 they did not come along above board and pay me when I wanted it. As I explained to Mr. Briscoe, I consider that my time was wasted, while I could have been otherwise engaged more profitably.

4980. Your only complaint is on the score of delay in paying the £25?—No, not in the delay only, but the whole general attitude from that onwards.

Deputy Dowdall.—But from that onwards, they were doing nothing, and 15 months elapsed between the time you agreed to take £25 and Mr. Heiser came along in March, 1935.

Deputy Coburn.—I wish to draw attention to the fact that there are only five members present. Two have gone.

Chairman.—I was thinking that would happen sooner or later. There is no quorum.

Deputy Traynor.—What time will the Committee sit until?

Chairman.—That has been decided by Deputy Coburn’s advertence to the fact that there is no quorum present, which means that the Committee will terminate its sitting now.

The Committee adjourned at 5.5 p.m. until 11 o’clock on Wednesday, October 9th.