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MIONTUAIRISC NA FINNEACHTA(Minutes of Evidence)Dé Céadaoin, 21adh Bealtaine, 1930.Wednesday, 21st May, 1930.The Committee sat at 11 a.m.
DEPUTY JASPER T. WOLFE in the Chair. Mr. Philip Toohey, called and examined.324. Chairman.—You are a registered moneylender and carry on business at 5a Fownes Street, Dublin and 67 Catherine Street, Limerick?—Yes. 325. You are one of the Committee of the Credit Traders’ Association?—Yes. 326. You are carrying on business in Limerick since 1900 and in Dublin for the past five years?—Yes. 327. You wish to give this Committee your views generally in connection with this matter?—I wish to read the statement that I have before me. 328. Is that a statement from your Association—No, a statement I have made out myself. It is as follows:—A Bill to regulate money-lending and to put an end to unjust charges and also to keep out cross-Channel moneylenders was needed and could do nothing but good. During my long experience of being in the money-lending I found that moneylending is a business the same as any other business, and it is availed of by every class and profession of the community. It is very necessary at times. Nor in my opinion will it greatly affect the big cross-Channel moneylenders who have offices here and lend large sums for a specified period, as they can always manage to get their own terms. That is the reason why, perhaps some of them welcome the Bill, as it will give them a monopoly and they will be like the old absentee landlords having no knowledge, interest, nor sympathy with their clients, and spending their earnings in England. But in my opinion if clause 11 is allowed to remain as it stands and a reasonable rate of interest is not permitted it will simply wipe out the smaller moneylender and make it impossible for an ordinary middle-class worker to obtain a loan. These smaller lenders mostly, in my opinion carry on a fair, just and legitimate business, show consideration and sympathy to their clients and are perhaps a necessary evil in the present constitution of society. There may be a few rotters, but there are black sheep in every flock and that is no reason why the decent man should be condemned and tarred with the same brush. In support of my statement I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to the evidence of H. W. Baxwell, F.C.R.A. Secretary of the Permanent Money Society contained in page 145 of the Report of the Royal Commission appointed to consider the Moneylenders Bill in England in 1925. This Society was registered under the Friendly Society Act and founded in 1903 and was formed for the purpose of lending money at relatively small interest to keep people from going to registered moneylenders. He produced figures to show that it would not be possible to carry on business under twenty per cent. and that even at twenty per cent. to twenty-five per cent. it barely enabled them to pay a small dividend to their members, and their money was always lent with promissory notes and with guarantors, and as the committee are aware, Societies under the Friendly Society Act imposed fines on their borrowers for every week lapsed. Further the late Sir Thomas W. Russell, M.P. President of the Board of Agricultural and Technical Instruction who was Chairman of the Royal Commission upon Moneylending in 1900 stated in an article which he afterwards wrote in the “Nineteenth Century” periodical “That owing to the risks which moneylenders take, in his opinion—and he was an exceedingly biassed man against moneylending—sixty per cent. was not too high a charge for any moneylender to make.” There was a good deal of similar evidence before the Royal Commission and I merely give these extracts to show the absurdity and injustice of clause 11 where a twenty per cent. maximum is suggested. 329. Chairman.—Would it be a fair question to ask you what is the average rate per cent. that moneylenders in Dublin charge at present?—Do you want to ask me that question in a general way or do you want to know what my own experience is? 330. I want to know at what rate you think the average borrowing in Dublin is conducted?—My average experience is from 40 to 50 per cent., which works out on an average at 50 per cent. and which brings the gross profit to 30 per cent. 331. Chairman.—What I want to know is what is the amount the borrower has to pay as interest. You say it is from 40 to 50 per cent.?—Yes, but it works out at 30 per cent. gross profit. 332. I am not asking that. What I want to know is what is the amount the borrower actually pays?—The amount varies according to the client. 333. But you suggest in your evidence that the sum is from 40 to 60 per cent.?— Yes. 334. Suppose a man borrows £5 from you and signs a bill for £1 a month, for six months, can you give any idea, with your expert knowledge, of the rate per cent. that the borrower would pay?—It would depend on what amount he paid back. 335. He borrows £5 and he pays back six by monthly instalments of £1 a month?—It would work out at about 60 per cent. 336. I will give you another instance. If I borrow £10 and I sign a bill for £12, repayable by twenty weekly instalments of 12/-, and if I pay back the £12, can you give me any idea as to the rate of interest that is charged?—It would work out at between 50 and 60 per cent. 337. If we find moneylenders coming before this Committee who have not the slightest appreciation of the rate of interest they are charging, how do you think the Committee should deal with them?—I have never as a rule gone in exactly to see what it works out at. It is not what is charged, but what it works out at the end by the time the man pays. 338. Suppose this Committee were to find that the moneylenders who are coming before it are under the impression that they are charging from 40 to 60 per cent. when, in fact, they are charging 100 per cent., do you not see that it puts a very difficult problem before the Committee: to allow people at large who, on their own statements, do not understand their own business and who are under the impression that they are charging half or less than half what they actually are charging?—I asked you before if you would allow me to give you my own experience —what I have experience of in business myself. I make a tot at the bottom of so many transactions after twelve months, and then I know what my rate of interest is. 339. I have not touched on that at all. I have given you two instances in which I think the rate of interest works out roughly at 100 per cent. You have calculated it at from 40 to 60 per cent. You are charging 100, but you suggest that you are only charging from 40 to 60 per cent. Do you not see that that is very dangerous from the public standpoint?— May I show you a few letters. Perhaps you would like to see something in writing. (Witness submitted a number of letters to the Chairman for his perusal.) 340. Do you not see that if, as a rule, your bills are so drawn that even you with all your vast experience do not know anything about the rate of interest that is being charged you cannot expect the borrower to know anything about it?— What I want to put before you is not what a man will come in and sign a bill for but what he will pay at the last payment, what it works out at at the end of the year. Suppose a man signs a bill for £25 and pays within a certain period, he will not be paying more than from 40 to 60 per cent., but at the end of the twelve months it only works out at a gross profit of 30 per cent. 341. That is not the question we are dealing with. You are being asked as to the average rate per cent. per annum at present being charged by moneylenders in Dublin. You have told the Committee that the average rate per cent. per annum is something from 40 to 60 per cent. I suggest to you that you know so little about the rate per cent. per annum that is being charged and that other registered moneylenders in Dublin also know so little about their job, that in fact they are charging 100 per cent. while they come here and say they charge only from 40 to 60 per cent. I gave you two examples and I asked you if, with all your vast experience, you could tell me what was the rate per cent. that was being charged in these two cases?—It is difficult to make out the exact rate. It depends entirely on the repayments. 342. Minister for Justice (Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney).—What we want to get from you is this: how much does the person who repays in full pay in interest. Would you keep your mind to that?—I do not suppose it works out at more than 60. In some cases it works out less. 343. Chairman.—When your Committee ask to have the rate fixed at 60, what you are asking is to be allowed to state where you are?—We asked for 60, but that will have to be reckoned out. 344. Could you give the Committee any estimate with regard to your average losses for bad debts?—33⅓ per cent. 345. I am not saying that you are wrong about that, but I can tell you this in confidence that some members of your Committee are under the impression that it is 10 per cent.?—They do not understand it. It is all according to the way they reckon it. 346. Do you mean that when they say 10 per cent. that they reckon it for a period and not over the whole year?—Yes. 347. For four months or whatever the period is?—Yes. 348. Deputy Cooney.—How long are you a member of this association?—Since it started about three years ago. 349. Do you state that there are no fines imposed for lapsed payments?—None, no matter how long. 350. When you issue a loan do you make provision for what you say never happens: that is non-payment within a specified time? You said that in your experience people who borrow do not pay up within the time specified?—Never as a rule. 351. Do you make provision for that?— Naturally, and that is the reason probably that the Chairman has counted it as he has. 352. What about the individual who does pay?—He generally always gets a rebate. 353. What would be the nature of the rebate?—According to what he was charged. 354. Could you give the Committee a typical example of that? (Witness handed some letters to the Deputy.) 355. If a man borrows £10, is it specified that he pays that back at £1 per month for ten months?—He always makes his own terms. 356. What would be the usual system of repayment in the case of a £10 loan?— It all depends on the class of customer. One customer might pay 10/- a week, and another £1 a month. I give a loan say of £10. I charge the man £13 to be paid back at a £1 per month. 357. If he paid the £10 back within ten months, or within six months, what rebate would you give him?—If he asked for a rebate I would give it to him according to whatever I charged him. 358. If you charge him £3 on a £10 loan, he has thirteen months to pay. If he pays the full amount within that period, what rebate do you give him?— According as it works out. I have not worked out the actual rate. It all depends on the class of customer. Good clients are hard to get. If a good client wants a loan he gets it on his own terms. 359. Deputy Wolfe.—You have a large number of clients both in Dublin and Limerick?—Yes. 360. I suppose a large number of these are old customers and are everlastingly on your books?—If they were everlastingly on the books we would not require to advertise and spend money. 361. But you have a number practically always on your books?—They come in now and again. 362. There are some whose names are never on your books?—They would be no good to me. I would try and get out of them. 363. How would you get out of them?— By giving them plenty of time to pay off and then giving them no more. 364. Does your rate of interest vary according to your opinion of the client’s capability for paying you?—Yes. 365. Deputy Davin.—Do you suggest that your evidence here to-day represents the considered opinion of the Dublin Credit Traders’ Association, of which you are a member of the Committee?—Mostly. 366. Does it or does it not represent the considered views of the Committee and the Association?—It represents the views of a good number. We had interviews only with members of the Committee. 367. How many members have you in your Association?—About eighty. 368. How many do you think you can speak for here to-day?—A good number. I should say most of them. 369. You say the average rate of interest charged by the members of your Association is between 40 and 60 per cent.?—Yes. 370. And that represents a gross profit of 30 per cent.?—Yes. 371. What figure would represent the net profit?—There would be 33⅓ per cent. loss, 33⅓ per cent. expense, and the net profit, as far as I can make out, would be 10 per cent., which would not enable a dividend to be paid to shareholders. 372. Can you give the members of the Committee a typical example from your experience of the business to verify the figures you have given?—I cannot give it in public. 373. Chairman.—Deputy Davin does not suggest you should give any names. He merely asks for a concrete example?— I could give an example. 374. Deputy Davin.—Can you give a typical case where you have done business so that the figures given by you can be verified—the percentage charged, the gross profit and the net profit?—I have it here. (Witness handed a document to the Chairman.) 375. Chairman.—The instances you give are from one of your branches?— Yes. 376. And they are within the last couple of days?—Yes. 377. I gathered that the example given by you occurred twelve months ago before the Bill was introduced?—I could give examples for months and years ago. 378. Deputy Davin.—You stated in your evidence that there were a few “rotters.” Am I to understand that the few rotters you refer to are members of your Association?—There might be some in the Association. 379. What is the average percentage charged by these few rotters—the gross and net profits on the business done?—I cannot say. 380. If you have “rotters” who are members of your Association, you surely know something of the way they carry on their work?—They might be charging more, or they might not be treating their customers in a decent way. 381. Can you give some information regarding the manner in which they carry on their business? Can you give a typical case of an unfair charge?—I am only suggesting that there may be an unfair charge. I cannot say exactly. There is a black sheep in every flock. 382. Do you regard it as part of your business as a member of the Committee of your Association to see that members of the Association carry on their business in what you state to be a fair and just manner?—Yes. 383. How do you deal with members who ignore the rules of your Association with regard to fair trading?—There have been no rules so far with regard to that, but we intend having them. 384. You have never expelled a member from your Association?—No, there are no rules by which we could deal with them. 385. Deputy Little.—Would you consider that a man in your profession was a “rotter” if he charged a high rate of interest and acted towards a client in such a way as to keep him on his books continuously year after year, always under a burden of debt?—What do you mean by “keeping him”? One may not be able to get out of him, and he would be anxious if he could. 386. We have come across cases where people have been charged so much in the way of interest on their loan that they have not been able to get out of it—the interest was so exorbitant—and there was no desire on the part of the moneylender to get them out of it?—The moneylender is always in the hands of the borrower. 387. Would you regard that type of man as a “rotter”?—The person I would call a “rotter” is a man who would not deal in a fair and square way with his clients and who might take some advantage of them. 388. Would you consider the instance I have given as taking advantage of a client?—I do not know if he would be able to take advantage of a client. A moneylender would be anxious to get him out of it if he was able. 389. That is, he would be anxious to stop milking the cow, or getting more out of the borrower?—A cow does not milk if it is not fed well. 390. Suppose a moneylender did what I have described, would you consider him to be a “rotter?”—What I would consider a “rotter” is a man who does not treat his customer well. If a borrower is in the hands of a moneylender, he is anxious to get out of him if possible. 391. Suppose you have a man getting money out of a person by charging him a high rate of interest and that he was able to keep him on his books continuously, would you regard that man not only as a “rotter” but as an ingenious “rotter”? —I do not quite understand. My answer is that a moneylender is not anxious for any customer to be continuously on his books. He always likes a new client. 392. Deputy Doyle.—You have long experience of the business?—Yes. 393. Do you lend money to married women without the knowledge of their husbands?—No, unless they have private means of their own. 394. Do you approve of the principle?— If ladies have means of their own, they are entitled to do business on their own account without their husbands knowing of it. 395. An example has been submitted to me. If a man borrows £20, do you give him £20, or do you give him £15 deducting £5 for interest?—It all depends. If I gave him £15 for £20, he would pay me back at the rate of 10/- a week. 396. If after paying for twenty weeks, the borrower cannot, through some difficulty, fulfill his obligations to you and seeks another loan of £20, what amount of money do you hand over to the borrower, after deducting the balance due for the first loan?—He would have to pay up the first loan. 397. Then you go through the same procedure as before?—Yes. 398. And that procedure is carried on indefinitely with the same man?—No. 399. For what term do you keep a man of that kind on your books?—I might have two or three transactions with him. There would be nobody to press him to take a loan if he did not want to. 400. Do you know of anyone carrying on that way for ten or twelve years?— No. 401. Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney.—I do not understand your reasons. Supposing an artisan who is earning £3 or £4 a week borrows from you, and keeps paying the interest regularly, why would you not keep him on to your own advantage?— Because, after a couple of years, if you have many transactions, he will take away not only the loan, but the principal. 402. How does that come about? Supposing he is in a position to keep the interest paid, why would you suddenly draw off?—A client gets tired dealing with one man after paying for some time, and naturally tries to take advantage. 403. I am afraid I do not follow you there. On the question of collecting, do you ever use threats of exposure or do members of your association do so? Supposing a man owes you money, is a threat ever made that his employer will be told? —That is the very man we do not like. We call him a black brush. 404. There is that type of man. Could you tell us the proportion of the moneylenders of Dublin who would use threats of exposure? They would not be very many; perhaps one or two. That is the type of man we do not like. 405. Chairman.—There is one instance we want to get on the notes. A man owes £3 10s. 0d on foot of a bill which is falling due or current. He borrows a further £1. How would you carry out that transaction?—He does not get the further £1. I do not do anything less than £5 unless with a very old customer who wants a few pounds. 406. If he was in and paid the £3 10s. 0d. you would give him £4 10s. 0d. for a £5 bill for three months. Do you give him only £1?—No. He owes the £3 10s. 0d. 407. Was it not his own £3 10s. 0d.?— A man must pay his bill or he cannot get another one. If a man goes to a grocer’s shop he must pay one bill before he runs another. 408. This man wanted to borrow a further £1?—He must pay what he owes first. 409. You paid that from the £4 10s. 0d.?—No. 410. You only gave him £1?—That is a wrong calculation. 411. Is not that the system of renewal? —No; the man paid the bill and wanted it again. He owed the money. 412. You consider that a different transaction from the case of a man who wanted a further £1?—He pays off what he owes. He could not get the money again. 413. You call that a new transaction? —Most decidedly. 414. The man believed he was to get £4 10s. 0d., whereas when he left the premises he only got £1?—If I did not give it, he would leave without anything. He would have to pay the £3 10s. 0d. 415. Deputy Little.—Have you had any cases in court?—Occasionally; whenever it was necessary. 416. Could you tell us how many you had?—I could not count how many. 417. A good many?—Yes; whenever it is necessary, I sue people. 418. How does the clause in the Moneylenders Act of 1900 work, where the judge is entitled to decide whether the rate of interest is reasonable or not?—I never had any experience of that kind. I always get a decree. 419. For the full amount?—Yes. 420. Deputy Cooney.—Mr. Toohey stated that pawnbrokers who lend on security can charge 20 per cent. on loans under their regulations?—Yes. 421. What is the nature of the security generally?—They get the value of whatever is pawned. 422. What would be the average security pawnbrokers get?—A person will bring in a suit of clothes for which five or six guineas was paid and may only get £1 or £2. They give a customer £2 perhaps, where an outsider would only get £1. 423. With pawnbrokers the security is generally wearing apparel?—And in some cases jewellery. 424. In most cases wearing apparel?— Yes. 425. According to the regulations, have not the pawnbrokers to keep the articles for a certain period?—Usually, they are taken out at the end of the week. 426. Take the case where the pledges are not redeemed; the pawnbroker has to keep them for some months?—I am not sure. 427. Either three or six months—They charge interest. 428. What would you consider to be the selling value of an article of wearing apparel at the end of six months?—As far as I have been told, a pawnbroker will only give one-third of the value. 429. Is it not a fact that if at the end of six months pledges are not redeemed, and if they are sold by the pawnbroker in the salesroom, the original owner can go and demand from the pawnbroker anything over the amount which he lent on them, plus interest?—I am not aware. 430. Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney.—It will be a matter of looking up the pawnbroker’s register?—The pawnbroker gets his expenses and interest. Miss T. called and examined.431. Chairman.—You do not wish to have your name mentioned?—No. 432. You are secretary of a limited liability company carrying on business in the City of Dublin?—Yes. 433. Do you wish the names of the owners of the business to be kept private? —I do. 434. You would not care even to state their nationality? I will keep it private, if you do not mind. 435. You say that your business is mainly transacted outside the Free State? —Exactly. 436. What proportion would you say is done outside it?—For every hundred customers we have outside the Free State, we have only one in it. 437. So that your business is mainly done outside the Free State?—Absolutely. 438. Do you use circulars?—Yes. 439. Do you advertise?—Yes. 440. And you lend money without security?—Yes. 441. You would not take security?— No. 442. I think your objection to the Bill is that you do not see why you should not be allowed to advertise in Northern Ireland or in Great Britain?—Yes. 443. You do not see why you would not be allowed to send circulars outside the Free State?—Yes. 444. Do you agree that you should not be allowed to send them within the Free State?—Yes. 445. You think it would be no harm if you did to the people of Northern Ireland and Great Britain what they are allowed to do here at present?—That is it, exactly. 446. You think that would be fair, and they would be able to look after themselves?—Yes, provided, of course, that if we send circulars to England they do not have us up. 447. You are referring to Section 5 (1) of the Bill?—Yes. 448. You suggest that that section should be amended so as to read “to any person within Saorstát Eireann”?—Yes. 449. You think if the words “within Saorstát Eireann” were inserted after the word “person” it would meet your view? Am I right in thinking that there are a number of moneylenders in Northern Ireland doing business in Saorstát Eireann?—I could not answer that question. 450. You may take it from me that there are. They send circulars here?—I am sure they do; we want to be allowed to send circulars to England without its being made a breach of the Saorstát laws. 451. You want them to be given the same dose that they give us?—Yes. 452. Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney. — Can moneylenders send a circular from England to a person here?—I believe they can. 453. Could they not be prosecuted in England for sending a circular to anybody here?—No, provided they keep within the English law. 454. Chairman.—If there is any danger of that, let them pass the letter to a person in Northern Ireland. But this witness’s suggestion goes further, because it is quite clear that under the Moneylenders Act she would be committing an offence if she posted a letter in England. They get out of that by sending across batches of them and getting them posted there. 455. Deputy Little.—Are you aware that this Bill is substantially the same as the Act already in operation in England?—Practically. 456. I suppose your company came over to work here in order to evade the English Act?—We are established here since 1912 and we did not do anything of the sort. We have carried on our business here since 1912. 457. You have clients in England?— Yes. We always did our business in that way and we have no other business but this business. 458. It became convenient for you to have your office in Dublin when the recent Act was passed in England—Yes. 459. Because you were then able to evade the English law?—I do not call it evading the English law. 460. The English authorities would call it evasion?—I do not think so; we are here so long. We have been here all along doing our business with England—long before the English Act was thought of. 461. Would it not be rather an anomaly if, when the law in one country is directed towards stopping abuses that the neighbouring country which had a similar law should assist the carrying out of those abuses?—When the Act came into force in England, they were going to allow the company to send out a card with their advertisements and nobody saw anything wrong in that. That is what we want to do. 462. But that is not in the English Act?—It was very nearly put into the English Act. That amendment was lost by only a small vote. 463. Would it not be better for you to try to get the English Act amended rather than to try to get a committee in this country to evade the English law— would it not be fairer?—I am concerned only with the law in our own country. 464. Deputy Cooney.—I would like to ask the witness if she would inform the Committee as to the reason why her people considered it necessary to have their offices here in view of the fact that 99 per cent. of their business is done with people in England?—It is really for sentimental reasons. We have always had our office here where all our business is done and it is convenient to everybody. We would not like to close it down. 465. You would not like to close it down?—Well, they have never looked at it in that light. 466. You say you lend the money without security?—Yes, that is our system. 467. You say you never take security? —We lend money on note of hand alone, without security. That is our method. 468. What method do you adopt with a view to ascertaining the reliability of the applicant for the loan?—It is there in this little paper that I have in my hand. It is set out very concisely. (Document handed to the Chairman.) He can read it out for the information of the Committee. 469. Chairman.—The lady says her firm could do no business “as advertisements would be no use. We have very little trouble with our clients as most of them, like ourselves, regard the loan as a business transaction. We always satisfy our ourselves, if possible, that our clients are in a position to repay, that is that the loan will not be putting them into further debt from which they cannot recover. Small householders and people with small incomes and no reserve of capital are not dealt with. Nobility, gentry, and professional people who reply to circulars are our clients. Several have been doing business with us for some years. Amounts up to £1,000 have been lent. Several people have borrowed this amount.” And they are still alive I hope?—Yes. 470. Then the document continues: “We clearly inform the borrower before the transaction is made, the amount we will send him, the amount of interest we will charge, and the amounts and dates on which the repayments will fall due. These are mutually arranged.” You give a great deal of information, but do you ever tell them the rate per cent. they are paying?—We do, because we go more on the English Act, which is 48 per cent., and anyone who asks us we tell them. 471. No, but do you really tell them the amount per cent. you are charging? —No. 472. That is their job to find out, not yours?—Exactly. 473. That is the way of all moneylenders: they leave the borrower something to do, and what he has to do is to calculate the rate per cent. per annum which he has to pay for the money—that is fair enough?—Yes. 474. Otherwise he would have nothing to do?—Yes. 475. Deputy Cooney.—Would you tell the Committee what method you have for the recovery of debts—do you bring cases into court?—Yes, we do. 476. In England?—Yes. An Irish judgment is not enforceable in England. That is why we have so many bad debts. 477. Where would most of your bad debts be?—In England. 478. You ask that this Committee should sympathetically consider your request to enable you to carry on your business?—Yes. 479. You ask that you would be enabled to send circulars to England and advertisements also without becoming liable to a prosecution in this country? —That is it exactly. 480. Or to a prosecution in England? —Yes, we do not want to break the English laws. 481. Deputy Wolfe.—You said you send out your circulars with the words “no security required”?—Yes. 482. Still you bring them to court— how do you recover?—Well, we leave that to our solicitor. 483. You leave it to their honour as displayed in a court of justice?—We lend to people whose word is their bond. 484. That is your only security?—Yes. 485. And you bring that out in court when you bring them there?—Yes. 486. Do you always get your money back?—We do not. 487. In the majority of cases, do you get it back?—No, we do not. 488. You do not consider that that holds with the people here—that their word is their bond?—I do, but the class with whom we deal in England on the whole are people whose word is their bond. There are very few people disputing our terms because we state our terms quite clearly beforehand. 489. Have you ever been able to get decrees?—We have, but we have always met them half-way. 490. Have you ever had cases where people were put in prison?—No. 491. Deputy Davin.—Would you furnish the Committee with a copy of the circular which is sent to clients, and have you any objection to that copy being placed on the records of this Committee?—Yes, I can let the Commitee have a copy of that circular. 492. Deputy Little.—When applications are made to your office by a borrower or an intending borrower from England, do you deal with the matter here in Dublin or do you send it to your English office?—We have no English office. 493. You do the whole business in Dublin?—Yes. 494. Have you any agents in England? —No, we are absolutely on our own. We do it all here. 495. I suppose you find it necessary when dealing with clients in England to have private inquiry agents there?—No. We send the person a form to return to us and the information we require is filled up on that form. 496. You deal with a type of client who would be fairly well known?—Yes, men in good positions. A man never gets money from us unless he has about £500 a year. 497. Deputy Davin.—Do you ever come across borrowers with a moving address?—No, because we only lend to householders. 498. Deputy Little.—And that is the type of client who is very unwilling to go into court?—Yes. I think that is so. Messrs. T. J. Morrison and J. T. Gerrard, Directors, Provident Union Discount Company, called and examined.499. Chairman.—I take it, Mr. Morrison, that you are director of a limited company?—Yes. 500. Carrying on business in the City of Dublin?—Yes. 501. You say our Company was established in 1845?—Yes. 502. And later registered?—Yes, in 1878. 503. The average number of shareholders is 45?—Yes. 504. Are the shareholders citizens of Saorstát Eireann?—Yes. I think they are all residents of Saorstát Eireann. 505. The primary object of the Company is to lend money to its members? Mr. Gerrard.—That was the sole object. 506. Chairman.—But you also make advances to non-members?—Yes. 507. You say that the Directors of the Company have perused the Moneylenders Bill and you invite the Company to consider the following suggestions relative to Section 2 of the Bill: “That provision should be made for the granting of a licence to a Financial Company incorporated under the Companies Acts, 1908 to 1917, and that the licence should be made out in the Company’s name, provided that the Court is satisfied that the persons responsible for the management of the Company are fit and proper persons. The Board of this Company suggests that it is not reasonable that each Director should have to take out individual licences if such is intended. The mere fact that a person acts in the advisory capacity of a Director of a Financial Company does not mean that such person is carrying on the business of a moneylender. The Directors of this Company are all primarily engaged in other occupations. Furthermore the Act fixes the cost of a licence at a sum that would involve a Company in unreasonable expense if each Director responsible for the management had to take out a licence?— That is our point. 508. Do you wish to add anything to that, Mr. Morrison?—No. 509. Yours is a Limited Company?— Yes. 510. If you think this question is unfair you need not answer it and there will be no comment made on your not answering it. Would you give the Committee an estimate of the bad debts of your Company on the average?—for the past three years? 511. The percentage of bad debts?— Well, of course, our Company has a very good record as regards bad debts in the past few years. 512. You would not compare your Company with the average moneylender?—No, I would not. 513. You are lending to your own shareholders?—We have a very small percentage of bad debts, but I think it is ¾ per cent. at the moment. 514. You are practically lending to yourselves?—Yes. 515. And you only accept outsiders when you are certain of them?—When recommended by shareholders. 516. What rate of interest do you charge?—The rates vary. If the loan is a substantial amount and is repayable by a small number of instalments, we charge rates varying from about 8½ to about 15½ per cent. That is to shareholders. In certain cases we charge more than 15½ per cent. 517. You are not doing business in the same way as the ordinary moneylender? —No. 518. And all you want to guard against is against paying a licence? Mr. Gerrard.—We want to guard against having our names registered individually as moneylenders. Our suggestion is that the licence should be made out to the Company in such case. 519. Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney.—You say the average number of shareholders is 45?—Yes. 520. And you lend money to members. Are members and shareholders identical? —Yes. 521. So that you seem to be 45 gentlemen lending money to each other primarily?—That is the primary object. In some years we might advance more money to outsiders than to shareholders, and in other years we advance more money to shareholders than to outsiders. It depends on the demands we get. 522. Can you give us a rough idea of how many persons, who are not shareholders, have received advances from your Company?—Roughly speaking, I suppose there must be about one hundred at the moment. 523. Therefore you are working in a small way, that is to say, you have not got more than 100 or 150 borrowers? 150 borrowers would be the maximum you would ever have?—Undoubtedly; we do not look for borrowers. We do not send out circulars and we do not advertise. The only time we do any business with outsiders is when shareholders send in their friends to borrow. 524. Deputy Little.—Have you examined the Moneylenders Act of 1900 closely, because I have an impression that you do not come within the definition of moneylenders?—We are advised that we do. If we give a loan to even one person who is not a member of the Company we are liable to register as moneylenders. Our solicitors have told us that. 525. Of course you are not on the same footing. What was the primary object of the Company?—Originally it was a sort of benevolent institution. 526. It seems that in lending money your rates of interest keep well within 20 per cent. Do you ever charge more than 20 per cent.?—In certain cases we have exceeded it, but we have not exceeded it very much. 527. You have done that because of the question of security?—Yes. If there was a loan repayable in a large number of instalments we find that we would have to charge more than that to cover the loan. 528. Over 20 per cent. per annum?— Yes. 529. I think you can give valuable assistance to the Committee by giving us evidence as to the constitution of the Society, because the case has been put up here is that the moneylender is a necessity in the community?—Well, our Company seems to be a necessity. 530. Generally in the community the moneylender is a necessity. You are able to show that you can carry on the moneylending business on the whole at less than 20 per cent. per annum and that you are a good working organisation?—Of course we have larger capital than I suppose 99 per cent. of the moneylenders in the Saorstát. 531. Mr. Gerrard.—Another thing is that moneylenders often lend to the very poor, and when we lend to our shareholders we have their shares and we have some sort of security. If we lend to their friends outside we have their note of hand secured by others. It is not the same class of business as is pursued by the ordinary moneylender who lends small amounts and goes around weekly to collect them. Our rates of interest would have no bearing on what would be required by such men. 532. Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney. — Your clients would be largely business men? Mr. Morrison.—Traders and the like. 533. Deputy Little.—You desire that you should not be considered moneylenders within the definition of the Moneylenders Act of 1900? Chairman.—It may relieve you if I tell you that I do not think that the Directors of a Company are moneylenders within the meaning of the Act. I think you will find, if you make enquiries. that under the English Act, of which this Bill is practically a copy, that an Incorporated Company gets the licence in its own name. Deputy Little.—Perhaps I might say that we made the definition in this case more severe than in the English Act We omitted certain concessions given under the British Act. Where there was a number of persons carrying on business in England they got certain concessions in respect of paying duty, but we did not put these concessions into this Bill. Chairman.—It is well to point that out. Mr. Morrison.—We think that the licence should be given to a Company provided the District Justice is satisfied that the gentlemen responsible for the management of the Company are fit and proper persons. We think that is all he should concern himself with. 534. Deputy Little.—You are afraid that all the Directors individually would be regarded as moneylenders and that you would have to pay a £10 licence in respect of each Director?—Yes, and certain Directors of the Company belong to professions, and the rules of their professions would prohibit their being engaged in any other business. 535. Deputy Cooney.—Is it your view that the moneylending system which is in operation largely in the city is a benefit to the community—the other type of moneylending?—The only thing I know about it is what I have read, and it seems to be a benefit if the rates of interest are not too high. It is very hard for a poorish person to get a loan from friends. If the rates of interest are not too high it would be a benefit to the community. 536. Would you think that your system of lending money would be a better system to adopt than the other system which is carried on and which this Bill aims at amending or altering?—I certainly think this is a better system, but then you see we do not understand the conditions of the other classes of moneylending too well. 537. You would not wish for facilities to extend your operations in the moneylending line? Mr. Gerrard.—I do not think we would care to go in for the very small business, and I am quite sure that if we did, we could not do it on our present rates. There must be more expense and more risk involved in such business where you are lending to those who have really no security at all to offer. I do not think we would be very keen on such business at all. 538. Deputy Cooney.—Would you care to inform the Committee at what rate of interest you lend to your own shareholders? Mr. Morrison.—We have told them that the rates vary from 8½ per cent. to 15½ per cent. 539. Deputy Cooney.—And the maximum would not be over 25 per cent. to outsiders?—We have charged in very few cases 27 per cent. I went over every case we had and the very maximum which was charged in a few cases was 27 per cent. 540. That was per annum?—Oh yes. The rates of interest I have given to you are worked out in the terms indicated in the Act. 541. Deputy Davin.—Is there any difference in the rate of interest charged to a member as distinct from a non-member?—Certainly, we charge an outsider more. 542. How much more on the average? —We would nearly charge 7½ per cent. or 8 per cent. more to an outsider than we would charge to our own shareholders. 543. Deputy Doyle.—What security would you have to get for a loan to a non-member? Would it be the bail of some of the shareholders?—It might be, or it might be the bail of two persons whom we knew, but who were not members of the company. It might also be the lodgment of a lease or an insurance policy or any sort of security. 544. Deputy Davin.—What good reason can you give for doubling the rate of interest to a non-member as against a member?—We think we are more secure when we advance money to members. We have a long association with our members, and we know the risks we are running when dealing with them. In addition, they have shares. Our shareholders have all inherited their shares down through generations. We know the histories of their families and we know that we are perfectly safe in advancing money to them. 545. You are not so much concerned in getting profits out of members as you are in getting profits out of non-members?—We get profits out of both classes of borrowers, but we get more profit out of persons who are not members. That is, speaking generally. A non-member might come along and give us a mortgage on his house and get a loan at even 10 per cent. 546. What is the net profit per cent. per year paid to the shareholding member?—Eight per cent. We have paid a dividend of eight per cent. per annum for the last three or four years. For about ten years previous to that we paid seven and a half per cent. Prior to that, so far as I know, the dividend never exceeded five per cent. We have been able, owing to the age of the company, to accumulate a reserve out of profits, and so we have more funds available for investment than our actual capital. 547. Deputy Davin.—You have already informed the Committee that the non-member borrower is about double the number of member shareholders. On the figures and statements from you, the profits made by the company and paid to the shareholders are got almost altogether from the non-member borrower. Mr. Gerrard.—No. Members borrowing generally borrow in larger sums. When we lend money to a person who has shares in the company we are really lending him his own money. That is a very good reason why he should pay a lesser rate of interest than the outsider. If I have twenty shares in the company —they are £10 shares—and if I borrow a couple of hundred pounds, I have already put that money into the company and I am quite entitled to preferential treatment. 548. Deputy Doyle.—Are profits devoted to any other purpose than the payment of dividends to shareholders?— Dividend and expenses. 549. Administrative expenses?—Yes. 550. Outside that, they do not go to any other source?—No. They go in the ordinary way of a trading company’s profits. Mr. Morrison.—They are used to reduce bank overdrafts sometimes. 551. Deputy Davin.—Do you fine your borrowers for non-payment?—In some cases. 552. Deputy Little.—You do not have many bad debts?—We dealt with that before. Mr. Gerrard.—Our bad debts are very few. Mr. W. H. Perceval called and examined.553. Chairman.—Are you a registered moneylender carrying on business in the City of Dublin?—Yes. I carry on business at 32 Lower Ormond Quay. 554. How long have you been carrying on business?—The business has been established since 1838. I am in business myself for thirty-five years. 555. Would it be fair to ask what rate of interest you charge?—Since the Moneylenders Act came into force in 1900, we were advised to make out a form of promissory note which I hand in to the Committee. We charge 35 per cent. per annum on money lent for the period for which we lend it, which is twenty weeks. We only charge for the time lent. It would work out at 14½ per cent. 556. This promissory note is for £10?— Yes, that is just a specimen copy. 557. If I went down to your office and came away with £10 from you, how much would I have to leave a note for behind? —We would charge you £1 9s. 2d. interest on that for five months. 558. How much would I have to sign the bill for?—£10. 559. How much money would I bring away?—£8 10s. 10d. 560. Take it the other way. Suppose I wanted to get £10 and not £8 10s. 10d. If you gave me £10, what would I have to sign the bill for?—We would deduct £1 9s. 2d. 561. And you would only give me £8 10s. 10d.?—Yes. 562. If you gave me £10, and not £8 10s. 10d., what would I have to sign for? —It would be £11 9s. 2d. in that case. 563. I would have to pay the same interest on £10 as I would have to pay on £8 10s. 10d.?—The borrower can pay the interest or ask me to deduct it. 564. If I had to pay the same interest, I should prefer to pay it on £10 than on £8 10s. 10d.?—It is immaterial. You can pay the interest on the bill and get £10 or ask me to deduct interest. It is more convenient for borrowers to get it deducted. 565. You seriously tell the Committee that if I borrowed £10 from you I would have to pay the same interest as if I borrowed £8 10s. 10d.?—You would have to pay the same interest. 566. Is not that a rather unusual way of doing business?—It has always been our practice. 567. That means that so far as your experience of moneylending is concerned it makes very little difference to the borrower whether he borrows £8 or £10?— As a rule, the man coming in to borrow £10 cannot pay down the interest, and he asks us to deduct it. 568. If you did not deduct it he would have the same interest to pay? Do you not know that that is not so? You would not give me £10 for the same interest as you would give me £8 10s. 10d. You would do your business on sounder lines? —It works out at 5s 10d. a month, and I would charge five months’ interest on it. 569. What would your bad debts average for the last ten years?—About £38 per year. 570. What percentage of your loans turns out to be bad debts?—About 15 per cent. 571. As regards the Act, have you any suggestions to make to the Committee?— I rather think the Act is all right, with the exception of the rate per cent. per annum. 572. That is of some importance. What rate do you suggest?—I am charging 35 per cent. per annum. We only charge for the period for which the money is out. 573. Do you think that a moneylender can carry on business in Dublin on a rate of 35 per cent. per annum and make a fair allowance for bad debts, costs following bad debts and overhead charges?— I can do it. 574. If other moneylenders suggested to the Committee that the figure 20 in the Bill should be substituted by the figure 60, would you think that would be on the tall side?—I do not know anything about lending money which you have to go out and collect from the borrowers. All our borrowers call to the office and pay weekly. 575. You do not get an office for nothing?—We have to pay rent of course. 576. And you have to pay a staff if you do not do the work yourself?—We have to pay a clerk. 577. You think all that could be done at 35 per cent.?—That is what I charge. In pre-war days, we only charged 30 per cent. 578. How would your loan of £8 10s. 10d. be repayable?—Ten shillings a week or £2 a month. 579. Ten shillings a week for how long? —Twenty weeks. 580. You think that would work out at 35 per cent. per annum?—Yes. 581. Have you tried that?—Yes. 582. You took weekly rests, as you are entitled to do?—I do not know. 583. I think you are doing yourself an injustice. You are charging a good deal more than 35 per cent.?—I do not think so. 584. Assume that I borrowed £10 from you, not £8 10s. 10d., and signed a bill to give you 12s. per week for twenty weeks. Did you ever see a transaction of that sort?—No. It would be an even transaction—10s. a week or £2 a month. 585. But this would be even. Have you any idea of what the rate per cent. would be in that case?—It costs £1 15s. 586. What percentage would it work out at?—A little over 15 per cent. for the time being. Three shillings to the £ would be 15 per cent. 587. I think you are doing yourself an injustice. It would work out, I think, at 100 per cent.?—I do not agree with you. 588. If you charge me 35 per cent. on £10 and gave me only £8 9s. 10d., instead of £10, the rate per cent. charged is more than 35?—If you like to come in and pay £1 9s. 2d., I will give you £10 and you will pay back at £2 per month. Paying back how much?—£2 a month or 10/- weekly. 589. Have you anything to say on the provision in the Bill about lending money to married women without letting the husband know?—I always get two sureties to sign a bill, and if the sureties are willing to sign for a married woman I do not object. 590. You do not lend to a married woman herself?—Not on her own security. 591. Nor on the security of her husband?—No; I get two securities. 592. You do not write to the husband? —We always ask if the husband is agreeable, and if he is agreeable he signs. Sometimes the husband may be away at work, and if two sureties sign we are satisfied. 593. You do not write to the husband breaking the news gently to him that his wife has borrowed money?—I would not mind letting the husband know. The way I do my business is that if two sureties are satisfied to sign for a married woman I am satisfied. I ask them if they are satisfied that the husband would consent, and then I feel the business is all right. 594. In that case you might be tempted to drop a line to the husband, and that would be hardly playing the game?—It is not usual if the sureties are quite satisfied. 595. Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney.—To what class of people do you lend money as a rule?—Labouring people and trades people, to whom we give small loans. 596. You always have bills and sureties?—Always; two sureties sign each bill. 597. For that reason the amount of your bad debts is not very high?—No, not too much. 598. On this question of interest you lend a person, say, £10, and you roughly deduct £1 10s. 0d. as interest. That is to say, a person will get £8 10s., and that person pays you back that £8 10s. and £1 10s. interest?—That is so. 599. You say that that works out at 30 per cent.?—Thirty-five per cent. 600. That £1 10s. payable for twenty weeks works out at 35 per cent.?—Yes, 35 per cent. per annum. 601. A person who has got £8 10s. 0d. from you at the end of the first week has only £8 of your money because 10s. has been paid?—Yes. 602. Coming to the last week, that person would have only got 10s. of your money?—That is right. 603. Have you taken into account, or calculated, what the amount of interest for that transaction is?—You mean taking into account the repayment? 604. Supposing you give the borrower £8 10s., then at the end of the first week you get back 10s. That would be one rate of interest, but if you get back 10s. per week it makes a very much higher rate of interest?—Yes, you get interest on repayments. 605. And taking that into consideration do you still say that the rate of interest is only 35 per cent.?—If you calculate it the way you do, it would work out higher. You get 5s. for the twenty weeks of repayment. 606. It is a sum in arithmetic but I think it is much higher. From your experience as a moneylender, can you carry on satisfactorily at 35 per cent?—I think so. 607. Deputy Little.—Following out what the Minister for Justice asked you, if the rate of interest was paid from week to week on the amount actually due it would be different, but paying the rate of interest all the time on a gradually decreased amount owed is different?—Yes, I agree. We would have to charge very much more than thirty-five per cent. to make it pay at that rate. 608. In other words, you do charge more than thirty-five per cent.?—We charge it for the whole five months. We do not allow for the reductions by instalments. 609. You take it as if the whole sum was due for the whole period?—Yes. 610. But that is not the actual case and one would have to make a very careful calculation to make out the actual rate of interest?—Of course, we have the interest coming in on the repayments. The 10s. a week at that rate would be 3½d. and you would have to take that for twenty weeks and that would be 5/10. It would be very complicated to have interest like that. We take the interest for the full five months on the amount of the loan. 611. The class of clients you have are ordinary working people?—Yes. 612. And you have about 15 per cent. of a loss?—Yes. 613. Can you give us an idea of what the average amount of the loans would be?—The loans are from £5 to £5 10s. and £15 would be the highest. 614. You would not give anything over £15?—Sometimes we give £20 but it would be a very exceptional case. 615. You are doing very much the same kind of business as moneylenders?—It is a moneylending business. 616. There is no distinction as between you and the case of the last witness?—I only do business in the city and county. We do not go over the whole Free State. 617. Do you call on your clients?—We call to make inquiries when we get new applications. We ask about the borrowers and we try to find out if they are respectable people and able to pay. 618. You disapprove of the type of moneylender who goes from house to house and tries to persuade the wife to take a loan of money?—I do not think it is right. 619. Deputy Davin.—What is the total average amount advanced by you for the last three years?—I could not go into that now. 620. What is the total amount advanced by you for the last twelve months? You must have the figures available?—I have not the figures here at present. 621. Could you give the Committee that information approximately?—I would have to look that up. I could not give an answer at present. 622. You have no idea whatsoever as to the total amount advanced by you in any particular year of the last few years? —I could go very near the amount— about £1,300. 623. And your loss per year is £38 on the business you do?—That is the average for the past ten years. 624. How do you make out that that represents 15 per cent.?—I did not go into the percentage very particularly. 625. You already told the Committee that the amount advanced roughly was £1,300, and the loss for the last ten years is £38 per year?—I took the average. 626. I do not calculate that to be 15 per cent.—It would not be 15 per cent. 627. The percentage loss is much lower than 15 per cent.?—It is lower than that. 628. Deputy Cooney.—Do you charge fines for lapsing?—No; only if the borrower passes the defaulting clause. There is a default clause in each bill. The bills are payable, say, three months after date, when the whole sum becomes due. If there is a balance due then, we write to get the interest on that balance at the rate of 7d. in the £ per month. 629. If I borrow £10 from you, you give me £8 10s. 0d., to be paid within five months?—To be paid at the rate of 10s. per week for twenty weeks, or £2 per month. 630. If I pay in that specified period, do you make any rebate?—No. 631. But if I exceeded that period you would charge me at the rate of 7d. per £ per month?—Yes. 632. Have you many court cases?—I have always court cases—about every three months. 633. Can you give the Committee an approximate idea of the numper of cases per annum you have?—I suppose I have about forty per annum. 634. Have you ever threatened people with exposure?—No; the only thing we send is a process. There is no threat. We write and tell the people we are going to take proceedings. 635. Do you know of any people in your business who lend money to married women without the knowledge of their husbands and threaten to expose them? I do not know any of the people in the business at all. 636. Would you approve of that?—No. 637. You say you would lend money to a married woman without the knowledge of her husband if the security was good? —Yes. 638. If you found she was not paying up by a specified time, would you hesitate to serve notice upon the husband?— Such a case seldom arises. 639. With those forty cases per annum, do you take into account the fact that it might be impossible for some of them to pay?—Yes, and we give them every leniency. We very seldom execute decrees. We find that once we get a decree they pay up. 640. But where a person is genuinely unable to pay?—Then you have to use your discretion. You cannot worry to death a man who cannot pay. 641. What would be your attitude towards a person who is not in employment?—Sympathetic always. 642. Would you let the matter drift?— Yes, until such time as the person would be in a position to pay. 643. You say that during the past three years you have lent approximately £1,300 per annum?—Yes. 644. Can you give the Committee an idea of how much of your original capital would be involved in that?—I do not follow that question very well. 645. I mean of the original capital you put into the business?—The original capital would be £1,800. It has been falling. 646. Out of that capital, you invested how much—that is, how much is out during each year?—£1,300. 647. Of the original capital?—Yes. 648. Even yet?—Yes. 649. Are you long in the business?— Since 1895. 650. Are you a member of the Association?—No. (The Witness withdrew.) Mr. B.—— called and examined.651. Chairman.—I understand that you do not wish your name to be published?— That is so. 652. I understand you were forced to borrow a sum of £40 from a moneylender?—Yes. 653. How much had you to sign a bill for?—£54. 654. How was the loan repayable?—£4 a month. 655. You paid that for thirteen and a half months?—I was paying it for twelve months. 656. If that is so, the amount paid up is £48?—I will have the £54 paid within the twelve months. 657. Then the repayments were about £4 10s. 0d. a month?—I only paid £4 a month, but on the last month I will pay, in addition to the £4, whatever the balance of the loan comes to. 658. That would be £4 per month for 11 months, and £10 for the last month?— Yes. 659. Had you to give security for the loan?—I had to get my wife to sign with me. 660. Who told you that the rate of interest charged you on the loan was 35 per cent. Where did you get that figure? —I think it is about 35 per cent. I could not say what the percentage is. 661. I am afraid you would get a shock if you knew the rate per cent. you were paying. You think that 35 per cent. is exorbitant?—I do. 662. And if, in fact, you were paying more than 35 per cent., I take it you would consider that more exorbitant still?—Exactly. 663 Was it the moneylender who told you that you were paying 35 per cent. on the loan or is that simply your own idea of what you were paying?—It is my own idea. 664. I think you had better keep clear of moneylenders and learn something as to how the rate of interest is calculated? —I think the rate of interest charged is a great deal too much. I think that ten per cent. would be plenty to charge. 665. You stated that you had not to give any security except that of your wife and yourself?—In addition to my wife and myself, I also had to get my son to sign. 666. Does he live with you?—No. 667. That you had to get your wife, yourself and your son to go security for the loan and you were living in the happy assurance that you were paying 35 per cent.?—That is the security I had to give. 668. Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney.—You stated that you had one transaction with a moneylender. Have you had more than one transaction with moneylenders?—I have had about five. 669. When did you get the first loan? —I was buying a house through a building society and when I fell short in paying my instalments on the house the society threatened to sell it on me. At the time I had about £200 paid on the house. I had to go to a moneylender, borrow money and get into debt in order to meet the instalments due on the house. 670. That is some years ago. Have you ever got out of the moneylenders? Never. I am still in them, unfortunately. 671. Therefore that loan did not do you very much good?—No. 672. Apart from your own transactions, do you know any of your friends who have borrowed money from moneylenders?—I do. 673. Have you ever known anybody who really benefited by a loan from a moneylender?—I do not think I know one. What generally happens is that they have to renew the loans because the instalments to be paid are so heavy that they are unable to meet them regularly. 674. Have you been going to moneylenders for many years?—I have. 675. Therefore, I take it that your experience is not in agreement with evidence given earlier to-day, that moneylenders do not like old clients. That has not been your experience. Do you think that moneylenders are willing to renew transactions as long as the interest is paid?—If they think that the applicant is bona fide and is likely to pay up they will renew loans. 676. Deputy Davin.—Does your son live with you?—No. My wife and myself have a house of our own. My son had a house of his own, but he is in a flat now. 677. Is your son in employment?—He is. When I was behind in the payment of my instalments they threatened to write to my son. If they did that it would injure him in his business. I do not think it is fair to make a threat of that kind. If I am two or three months in arrears, I think I should get more time than they give to clear off what I owe. 678. Is your son employed by a public company?—He is employed in a private business house. 679. And you believe it would injure him in his business if his employers found out that you were behind in the payment of the instalments?—I believe it would injure him materially. 680. Deputy P. S. Doyle.—Must each loan be paid off before you get a new one? —No. What happens is that if there is a balance outstanding on an old loan that is deducted from the new loan granted to you. 681. You stated that you had a number of loans over the last few years. When you cleared off one loan and got another, what exactly was the position with regard to the payment of interest?—On some of the loans I got the interest was deducted. If I applied for £10 I had to give a bill for £12 10s. 0d. On a loan of £20 they stopped the interest. The actual amount I received was £17 or £18. 682. Deputy Little.—Have you kept any account of the total amount you got from time to time from moneylenders as well as an account of the total amount you paid back?—I think I have in my books. 683. Could you tell us the total amount that you paid back?—I paid back every loan in full. 684. What was the amount of the first loan?—I think about £10. 685. And what was the total amount that you paid back?—£12 10s. 0d. 686. Did you clear that loan completely, and then get another loan?—Yes. 687. Am I to take it that the second loan had nothing to do with the first loan? —No. 688. What was the amount of the second loan?—I think it would be about £20. 689. And you paid back how much?—I suppose about £25. 690. Take a period in which you were not able to pay back the final instalment. In that case I take it you had to renew the loan, and what I want to find out is what was the total amount you paid over that period?—In one case I think I had paid £17 out of £20. Then I had to get a fresh loan. On the new loan they stopped the balance of £3 that was due on the old loan. On the new loan they gave me they charged interest on the full amount given to me. 691. What was the amount of the new loan?—£20. 692. And the point you are making is that they charged interest on the full amount—that is, on the amount of the old loan outstanding and on the new loan? —Yes. 693. Is this particular transaction in which you are now involved the end of a series of transactions or one standing by itself?—I have paid £4 a month over the last four or five months, and there is a balance of £34 to be paid. 694. Is that one loan by itself?—Yes. 695. Deputy Doyle.—During how many years have you been borrowing money?— Ten or twelve years. 696. Could you give the Committee any idea of the amount of money you borrowed in that time?—I could not, but I suppose it would be between £200 and £300. 697. Could you tell the Committee the amount of money that you paid back?— Not without going over my papers and books. 698. Deputy Little.—Would you be able to look up the books and make out a statement for us?—I think so. 699. It would be very useful for us to know how much during the whole period you got on loans and how much you paid back?—I will try to do that. 700. Deputy Cooney.—Were you recommended to go to this particular moneylender?—I took my chance. 701. You were clear when you went for the loan of £40?—Yes. 702. How much did he give you?—He gave me £40. 703. Did he ask you for what purpose you wanted that money?—I told him myself it was to pay off debts for groceries and other things. I thought it very nasty of him when I was a couple of days behind and I got a solicitor’s letter demanding that I should pay up at once. I had to get the money from some source, for I was afraid of my wife and son, and particularly of my son, because it would ruin him in his business if his name appeared in the paper in connection with the matter. 704. Deputy Davin.—Had you to pay the cost of the solicitor’s letter?—I paid something on the solicitor’s letter in order to stop being taken to court. 705. You paid the cost of the solicitor’s letter?—Yes, I paid the costs to him because I did not want to go to court and expose myself. 706. Chairman.—Would it surprise you to know that you were paying interest nearer to 60 per cent. than to 35 per cent.?—No, surely not? The Committee adjourned. |
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